Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-898: Scarlet Series!

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Kor wrote:Is it just me, or did Gosho screw up the time difference? The way the last few pages of the file look, it seems like it's dark outside, so if this award show is in the states, that would imply the show is airs a very weird time at the states, which would be weird.
I think the rewards are live despite Gosho messing up the time difference. Assuming it is between 6 and 10 PM Tokyo time when Amuro visits Okiya, it would be 2:00 am to 6:00 am in LA

Edit: also it has been ~24 hours since Vermouth and Amuro's discussion. The DB goes to school in between and all. This means there is enough time for a chartered jet to go between LA and Tokyo, and possibly even enough time to go roundtrip.

Also the most important question... Will Okiya offer Amuro any stew?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 19th, 2014, 10:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Kor »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Also the most important question... Will Okiya offer Amuro any stew?
Spoiler:
Depends. If Yusaku is Okiya, then he'll probably try to stay in character, but then mess up when he offers something completely different (which would be Gosho's huge hint for the readers) ^-^
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Jecka »

Kor wrote:
Spoiler:
Is it just me, or did Gosho screw up the time difference? The way the last few pages of the file look, it seems like it's dark outside, so if this award show is in the states, that would imply the show is airing at a very weird time in the states, which would be weird.
Spoiler:
Hey, yeah. There's at least a 13 hour time difference (east coast) so it's starting really early in the morning. :V
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Zenthisoror »

Spoiler:
Johnny Bip and Macademy? Macademy!? Really... oh goodness, I'm crying with laughter...But this case sure looks interesting!
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

Kor wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Also the most important question... Will Okiya offer Amuro any stew?
Spoiler:
Depends. If Yusaku is Okiya, then he'll probably try to stay in character, but then mess up when he offers something completely different (which would be Gosho's huge hint for the readers) ^-^
Indeed.
Spoiler:
Thing is, it is a tightrope, because having someone else play the part can be dangerous, especially if they mess something up that Subaru wouldn't, but it could also be protection from the ironic process theory that Amuro has been using time and again in the past few files. They would only have whatever Akai was telling him, while Akai himself knows a hell of a lot more.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Jd- »

I'm not fully caught up on everything to date, but wanted to add that...
Spoiler:
I'm not entirely sure I understand the purpose that would be served by having anyone, Yuusaku or not, disguise as Okiya here. In any other situation, you would be trying to prove that Disguise A is not Person A by having Person A appear while Disguise A is around (as has been done several times now with Conan/Shinichi appearing together). However, due to Akai being meant to be dead, that's not really a logical ploy here (although the next point I'll make in the second spoiler may suggest otherwise).

So, if this Okiya is the real Okiya but with someone else providing the voice... Why? Akai has already completely altered his voice, by whatever means, to no longer be recognizable when he's Okiya. Now, if this disguise is Yuusaku as Okiya, for example, I'm again not sure what the strategic value is exactly. I can't really settle on a coherent reason as to why they would go through all that unless it's that Akai is, for whatever possible reason that Gosho comes up with as justification, about to make another dramatic appearance but thís time while Okiya is already around. As will be mentioned below, protecting the Okiya identity shouldn't take precedent over the fact that as soon as Akai is confirmed alive to the Black Org, Kir will go the way of Old Yeller.

But, my question is, should something like this happen: Why would Bourbon ever be fooled by any of this? He, of all people, knows the power of disguises. He shouldn't be fooled by the way someone looks or the way they sound and isn't likely to eliminate anyone on that basis given that he's already been involved in two perfect disguises himself and has seen countless more thanks to Vermouth.
All that said, the #1 thing that has to be addressed soon is:
Spoiler:
Why Akai appeared as himself on the Mystery Train and put Bourbon back on the right track when he was otherwise convinced Akai was really dead. Thus far, there hasn't really been any strategic reason for correcting him other than... drawing out a Black Organization member? But, I have trouble accepting this was some sort of genius calculated risk given that Kir would be put in mortal danger as a result of even the slightest hiccup. They also have no way of predicting how Bourbon or anyone else around would react. There are just too many holes that haven't been filled in what happened from that point on that makes me wonder what Gosho even wants us to make of that event.

Kor wrote:
Spoiler:
Is it just me, or did Gosho screw up the time difference? The way the last few pages of the file look, it seems like it's dark outside, so if this award show is in the states, that would imply the show is airing at a very weird time in the states, which would be weird.
Spoiler:
Part of the trick here could indeed be the tape delay. These programs are often on tape delay until the following primetime period in foreign countries where a live broadcast would be unfeasible. For example, Yuusaku appears on TV in the background while Okiya and Amuro are speaking, and it's meant to be misdirection that Yuusaku is in America and couldn't possibly be the one disguised. A trip to Tokyo from Los Angeles would take between 10~11 hours, so... it's not really impossible I guess, but would be a really tight window.

Though, personally, I don't want to see that sort of thing. It's too obvious after having just mentioned Yuusaku in such an obvious way, so... Yeah, I'd rather be surprised than that.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Jd- wrote: All that said, the #1 thing that has to be addressed soon is:
Why Akai appeared as himself on the Mystery Train and put Bourbon back on the right track when he was otherwise convinced Akai was really dead. Thus far, there hasn't really been any strategic reason for correcting him other than... drawing out a Black Organization member? But, I have trouble accepting this was some sort of genius calculated risk given that Kir would be put in mortal danger as a result of even the slightest hiccup. They also have no way of predicting how Bourbon or anyone else around would react. There are just too many holes that haven't been filled in what happened from that point on that makes me wonder what Gosho even wants us to make of that event.
Not spoilering because not spoilers. Akai or someone had to appear and throw the grenade to force the separation of the train because Kaitou Kid revealed there were bombs and Bourbon was going to force Kaitou Kid to come with him. The ensuing struggle might have revealed Kaitou's identity and thus the ploy to fake Shiho's death. Shuuichi probably chose to show up as Akai rather than Subaru because Subaru lives next door to Ai and it would be problematic if Bourbon tracked him down and everything would have gone to hell anyway. By appearing as Shuuichi at least there was a chance that he could get away with it. Shuuichi doesn't have an address afterall.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 19th, 2014, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Okiyakaivan »

eh, chapter 894 out already?
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Jd- »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Not spoilering because not spoilers. Akai or someone had to appear and throw the grenade to force the separation of the train because Kaitou Kid revealed there were bombs and Bourbon was going to force Kaitou Kid to come with him. The ensuing struggle might have revealed Kaitou's identity and thus the ploy to fake Shiho's death. Shuuichi probably chose to show up as Akai rather than Subaru because Subaru lives next door to Ai and it would be problematic if Bourbon tracked him down and everything would have gone to hell anyway. By appearing as Shuuichi at least there was a chance that he could get away with it. Shuuichi doesn't have an address afterall.
[Spoilering the below because it's a long post and not entirely related to this case, specifically. I also haven't read/watched some of this in ages upon ages, so keep that in mind too]
Spoiler:
I have to ask of Akai: Where does Kir's impending doom fit into that plan? Even the slightest suggestion that Akai is still alive would be enough to set Gin off, as we saw during the Red Shirts case. Kir already mentioned before that Bourbon was dangerous, so clearly she wasn't expecting much discretion or sympathy from him if it came to that.

Appearing as Okiya without the glasses or, better yet, just coming up with another concealing agent of any sort (even a scarf would do) seems like a much better choice than appearing as Akai himself. He had to know that something may go down on the train when he got aboard, so not being prepared for that eventuality seems like a pretty big mistake on Akai's part if we take it all at face value (not that we should, necessarily).

Eventually, if the Black Org knew that Akai were still alive, Bourbon would come knocking on doors. If they ever arrived at Okiya (as Bourbon now has), it may get a bit suspicious given his sudden appearance conveniently right after Akai himself "died". Haibara happens to be right next door, so in fact, one could argue that by appearing as Akai instead of taking other measures, he has actually put Haibara in far more danger by keeping Bourbon around (and by living next door in the first place, one could argue). If you look at everything that happened since then, including Amuro now stalking the detective agency and spending a lot of time around Conan, Akai's appearance on the train actually caused a lot of problems that otherwise would have never come to be. Bourbon was already convinced Akai was dead, so Jodie's friend wouldn't have been forced to be involved, Bourbon wouldn't have uncovered so much about Conan or gotten this deeply involved with Mouri and the others, he wouldn't have gotten this far with everything else that's going on (Sera, Jodie, the FBI, etc), wouldn't have uncovered the trick with Rikumichi's body, along with a litany of other issues that directly arose from Akai showing himself on that train.

This isn't even inclusive of Sera being in danger. Them knowing Akai is alive for sure puts her in a terribly perilous position in and of itself. She is then leverage for him to come out of hiding if they so wish to go that route, or they may have just killed her.

If it were me in his place and I had to throw that grenade and had to be seen doing it (necessary for dramatic effect but little else), I would have done so as Okiya and ditched that identity if I felt exposed. At best, Bourbon would think the FBI, CIA, or some other agency had been monitoring the Black Organization's operation and wouldn't have immediately went to "That's Akai Shuuichi". With this course of action, he at the very least gives everyone a chance (including Kir) to not be put into immediate danger. With what did happen in actuality, though, we have everyone in very unnecessary danger. The worst that would come of it is Bourbon being confident and curious enough to find Okiya (who I don't think he'd even seen in any form up to that point, but it's been a long-long time since I've read/watched those old cases) and find the house he was staying in, but with the comparable little information Bourbon had at the time, he definitely was not in any danger of connecting all of those dots at nearly the same speed he has now.

So, in all, we have:
- Appear as Okiya for the grenade toss and Bourbon is mystified as to who this person is but has no solid leads at that moment. Kir stays alive and entirely out of harm's way as there's no proof or reason to connect Okiya Subaru with "Akai is alive" at this point in time. He can ditch this identity if necessary and go a different route; very few people knew Okiya, and it'd be as simple as saying he found a new apartment to let him move away and out of the lives of the very few that had met him before. At best, Amuro somehow uncovers Okiya's name and location, but he has no conclusive means of connecting all the dots as he still has no confirmation that Akai is alive--and in fact has no real reason to investigate this mysterious grenade tosser in the first place.

- Appear as Akai for the grenade toss and confirm to Bourbon, who believed Akai to be completely dead at that time, that Akai was still alive. This reignites Bourbon's interest in the case, when otherwise he was fully ready to give up and report back to the Black Org that, yes, Akai Shuuichi really was dead. Instead, by appearing as Akai, everyone is in danger: Conan, Ran, Haibara, Mouri, Jodie, Camel, James, everyone around them is now going to be in the Black Org's spotlight for the foreseeable future. This, ultimately, turns out to be quite a wild move on Akai's part, as he unnecessarily led a Black Org member right into Conan's life.

I can't help but assume that Gosho has a better explanation than what we've theorized so far as to why Akai did that. The current situation just doesn't seem very logical or, more importantly, smart, and thus not really in accordance with Akai's careful character we'd witnessed up to this point.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

About the issue of why the disguise route is possibly viable: Amuro's been using ironic process theory this whole time and Akai is likely very much aware that Amuro uses psychological ploys (he refused to contact allies to reveal what happened, possibly in case someone started sniffing around; then the FBI's reactions are genuine).
Spoiler:
If someone else is in the place of Okiya, they are limited to saying what is told to them by Akai. Due to this, there's less of a chance of them revealing more information than is needed. Their cluelessness would be genuine about certain subjects. Akai may be very much a secretive individual and has worked undercover a lot, but it's been a few years since his cover was blown and it's possible they didn't want to take certain chances.

As for the issue of Yuusaku or Yukiko, they both live at that address, so if Amuro tries to tear off the disguise, they could say they were trolling him for shits and giggles. If someone else is in disguise, there's also how Amuro trying to tear off the disguise would be met with someone other than Akai.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

@Jd- all good points. I'm honestly not sure how well the Akai thing on the train will be thought through. Hopefully it will be as you say, and Gosho has a good explanation. The whole mystery train case was pretty sloppy which worries me.

The awards ceremony might not be live afterall. In that case maybe Yuusaku hauled back to Japan on a chartered flight. I don't think Yuusaku would be mentioned if he was not important, and I don't think Okiya would be wearing the facemask if there was not some sort of trick up his sleeve.

Ran might be suspicious of Conan again which is worrying. She might wander into this situation again.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 19th, 2014, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Korvo »

Vermouth is being really really obvious.

I read the mention of Yuusaku as a strong hint that Yukiko is involved somehow.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Smitty »

Here are my thoughts on the current developments, there's little structure to it, and I go off on different points...

Questions:
Spoiler:
How did Bourbon find Shinichi's (or the "Kudo's") house?
-or-
How did Bourbon find Okiya's house?

Where did Bourbon think he was going?
Why was it necessary for Vermouth to disguise as Scar Akai on the Mystery Train? There were no known FBI agents aboard. Bourbon already gouged Jodie, Camel, and Sera prior to Mystery Train.

Based on the past few chapters, is Vermouth's promise related to protecting Conan? (related, did Scar Akai really protect Conan during the Bank Robbery case?)

Was Team Conan's plan on the Mystery Train really to make the BO believe Sherry is dead?
---
Chapter Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Based on the chapter, I do not believe the man appearing currently as Okiya is Yusaku in disguise. Team Conan is already too big as it is. Yukiko can fulfill a disguising role as she seems to be on par with Vermouth. Yusaku appearing on TV is probably going to either be a plot point this series as the setting currently seems to be at the Kudo residence.


Next, I believe that Okiya is either Shinichi or Akai.

The mask is a bone for Bourbon to bite, with the real voice technology around the high collar.

If Okiya is Shinichi (or pretty much anyone excluding Okiya, Akai or Yukiko)
- Akai can keep an eye on the situation, and act/intervene if necessary. Akai and Okiya are both physically adept and generally armed
- It can force Akai and Okiya to be in front of Bourbon to debunk Bourbon's deduction, as Akai can appear in a similar fashion as in the Mystery Train, essentially as a "you can't catch me!".


If Okiya is Okiya (and likely Akai in disguise)
- He can say whatever he needs to make the situation flow in either direction (as he knows everything "Okiya" knows, and everything "Akai" knows)

If Okiya is Yukiko
- She will be able to impersonate at the Vermouth level
---
Spoiler:
Thoughts to keep in mind based on this chapter.
Okiya has confirmed (in front of Conan) that he is living in Shinichi's house (814.12). We have yet to see Conan acknowledge that Okiya knows that Conan is Shinichi, so let's keep that fact aside for now (for simplicity's sake). Remember that Yukiko and Okiya are acquainted based on the Mystery Train events.

Since Okiya knows Conan is a primary contact (Ran and Yukiko being the others) to get a hold of Shinichi, Shinichi could have been invited into this rendezvous in some form (in Okiya's eyes).
Spoiler:
If Conan was planning with Agasa the night before, Okiya could have likely heard everything as the Agasa residence is bugged (Ayumi && Rug Case) without Conan's knowledge, but this is unlikely. All intel regarding the past few Bourbon cases has probably been relayed in full to Conan, Okiya, and anyone immediately involved with this rendezvous. If Shinichi is involved, Haibara mentioning "being ill" could be a possible hint for us!

---
Spoiler:
The question now is, what is Bourbon going to say/do? He's solved nearly every aspect of the fake death trick, but now needs to locate Akai himself. Bourbon has appeared infront of Okiya, but how did he figure out Okiya lives beside Agasa, and that he's Akai in disguise (or hiding him)? Why is he even there?
Few more things:
Kir was hospitalized under the pretense that she was Akai's sister (605.5), this statement along with the appearance of Masumi in Japan is something to consider. We have yet to see this fact referenced again. We don't even know if Gin, Vodka, or Kir relayed this information to Vermouth or Bourbon. It is possible Bourbon knows (details obtained from Vermouth in 824.16). Bourbon may threaten her/Okiya in some form, or use the above fact to force other facts out of Okiya or any Team Conan member.

Based on 855.13, Vermouth is being kept out of the loop as Bourbon investigates.

In response to JD. Amuro both saw each other Okiya in 800.11. Okiya was driving his car at the time.

Anything related to Agent Camel is very dangerous - he was supposed to be blown up (603.14), Vermouth is a witness to this. Camel's position in front of the BO and his face being known is negligible (603.13), but it is still something to consider. Vermouth relaying facts between BO's agents is not consistent, let alone her actions but I've always felt that the longer Camel is around, the longer Team Conan has a vulnerability.

I don't believe Kir is in any real danger in terms of the plot. If she escapes/dies, we as readers have only seen one benefit for her return to the BO which was Bourbon being "activated".
Last edited by Smitty on April 19th, 2014, 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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