Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[dccd]

Great work as always Meitantei.
I really love the fact that you do use and display panels to underline ur statements.
I pretty much agree with everything said to Wakita.

You even had me that far being convinced that Rumi = Vermouth.
Nethertheless in the end there is Ais comment, which implies that Rumi in the end is a good character/no a current bo-member.
Yes Rumi is obviously someone in disguise - but after this comment its hard to believe that its Vermouth.
Still its possible though.

And dont forget: Before you post next time you have to answer zerozakis 100 next questions.
Just kidding

[Zerozaki4869]

My current speculations are,

a) Iori Muga=Asaka/Rum's lackey.
b) Rum=Chikara Katsumata.
c) Wakita= Anybody's guess.
d) Kuroda= An infiltrator in the BO, who wants to take Rum down.
e) Rumi= Haneda's girlfriend/sister.

[MeiTanteixX]

I have to disagree on several fronts.

why would Vermouth assume that the old APTX had the same side effect as the new APTX?

Vermouth would have reasons to suspect that Asaka disappeared because the SB prototype didn't kill her, since she knows that the APTX prototype(that is based on SB research remains) didn't kill Shinichi and Sherry.

Didn't say it's the same side-effect, in fact:

If Asaka was drugged, and then survived like Conan and Haibara, because of an effect that doesn't kill(which isn't necessarily shrinking)

f) Rumi's personal hatred against Rum isn't explained by this speculation of yours. You speculation is also silent about how Rumi got the glass fragment but not the shogi pieces?

This would also explain why she reacted towards "prosthetic" in an angry manner, while gripping an object that is connected to the dying message(File 987). Rum, who has a prosthetic, was the reason for Asaka getting drugged and disappearing, and ultimately creating this mess that she has to cover up.

As for how she got the "U" shard, I brushed upon it by saying that she would be capable of taking it from the crime scene in Juke hotel, since she lives in the US. It would be simple for her to disguise as one of the forensics and find the "U" shard before the police. Since there's no mention of the "U MASCARA" shards being found at all in the website(Assuming they are actual police case information that Mary is uploading), it's possible that it was never found, meaning that Vermouth could have sneaked into the crime scene after the police left it and found the "U" shard.

g)Rumi's glare even before Kuroda opened his mouth doesn't get explained by your assertion.

She reacted to him like how Conan and Haibara reacted during their initial meeting with Kuroda, which Kuroda himself said he was used to. I think the key-point of what Kuroda was saying is that despite his scary face glaring at her, unlike normal people, she stared right back, implying that she's a beast herself(File 988). Gosho wasn't making the "Gamera Vs Godzilla" comparison for nothing(AC).

Great work as always Meitantei.
I really love the fact that you do use and display panels to underline ur statements.
I pretty much agree with everything said to Wakita.

You even had me that far being convinced that Rumi = Vermouth.
Nethertheless in the end there is Ais comment, which implies that Rumi in the end is a good character/no a current bo-member.
Yes Rumi is obviously someone in disguise - but after this comment its hard to believe that its Vermouth.
Still its possible though.

Thanks.
Ai's comment does imply that Rumi has a genuine good side, but it doesn't prove that she doesn't have a bad side. Rumi and Vermouth are characters that Gosho has clearly portrayed to be gray characters, meaning, you can't categorize them as white(good) and black(bad).

[Zerozaki4869]

a) The question here would be, even if Asaka wasn't found dead, Rum would have to mention to the BO boss that he used APTX on Asaka, then Asaka would be termed an unconfirmed case much like Shinichi. So Vermouth herself would be very interested in Asaka. But the only reason which forced her to be on the only instance pertaining that case was her fear that Bourbon would do something bad to Ran and Conan. If Bourbon used another method Vermouth wouldn't even be there in the first place. So it negates your Vermouth's interest in Asaka.

b) The question here is why Vermouth will have a personal hatred against Rum and even consider roaming around with the "U" shard? Even if that was the case why she would tightly grip it and get triggered. Vermouth is a very measured person and she won't be doing it if the "U" shard nothing more than evidence(to be precise roaming around with potential evidence it very stupid decision for someone as calculative as Vermouth.) Even if you assume Rumi gets triggered by Rum and grabs the U shard and has even the cerebral naivety of carrying it around then you have to prove that this case was a very emotionally connected to Vermouth. Which is the biggest of leaps you're taking.

c) Even if Kuroda has a scary face, does it warrant someone to glare back at him. Why would she shoot an unnerving glare to a random person who has a burnt face? Rumi isn't a kid, neither she is the type to get unnerved by inconvenient situations, but the mention of man with a bad/prosthetic eye triggers her, the appearance of a man with a bad eye makes her glare back at him.(If Vermouth really was Rumi she would have known who Kuroda was and would have been more normal around Kuroda.BO operatives do keep tab on Law enforcement agencies) So Kuroda's appearance makes Rumi bestial despite the fact that Kuroda is the police chief. So if Rumi considers Kuroda as Rum then it proves more to me that Rumi has hardly any idea about Rum.

[MeiTanteixX]

the only reason which forced her to be on the only instance pertaining that case was her fear that Bourbon would do something bad to Ran and Conan. If Bourbon used another method Vermouth wouldn't even be there in the first place.

Using emotion as an excuse is very simple, since it doesn't have to rely on reason. Bourbon has been around the Mouri this whole time, and has even saved Conan multiple times, and only now is she feeling "anxious" about him being around them, not to mention that she changed the subject immediately. Conan, who didn't hear her excuse, was under the impression that she came to investigate the dying message(File 958) because that's what her actions indicates(and actions speaks louder than words).
If Bourbon decided to use her help, there's no need for an excuse, since she would naturally have the opportunity to get involved in the investigation.

The question here is why Vermouth will have a personal hatred against Rum and even consider roaming around with the "U" shard?

What we know as fact is that she was gripping an object out of anger towards something related to what Danno was saying. To measure that "personal hatred" to the level of someone hurting you directly, that's making an assumption, an explanation, not stating facts. What I mentioned was also an explanation that doesn't contradict the facts.
As for why she brought the "U" shard:

it's possible that she brought that shard with her in order to convince Conan that she's Asaka if the opportunity arises(since it would at least imply that she was there in the crime scene if she showed it to him).

c) Even if Kuroda has a scary face, does it warrant someone to glare back at him. Why would she shoot an unnerving glare to a random person who has a burnt face?

He's not a random person, he's a suspicious-looking man who happens to be a witness in a case that she's involved in. Reacting to Kuroda that way is established to be normal, but her glaring back is not, and further portrays her as "not normal"(which Rumi and Vermouth is).

[alphajjc]

There's something that I have noticed about the setup and order of the cases that leads up to the characters' introduction. What I initially realized was that the "Soul Detective" case(File 951-953) is seemingly setting up Wakita's introduction(File 975-977) and his purpose in the story(File 977+). Indications of that was first of all the cliffhanger with Gin, where his suspicion towards Kogoro grew strong enough for him to wanna take action(File 953), which fits with the development where Wakita becomes Kogoro's apprentice(most likely with the intention to verify Gin's suspicion)(File 977).

MeiTanteixX you said this in the first part of the theory. In that case why don't you believe the same applies for Chikara? We were told of a Rum BO member on the move almost 100 files ago and then the very next chapter we are introduced to Chikara in 898 to 902 during the shogi match against Shuichiki

[Zerozaki4869]

the only reason which forced her to be on the only instance pertaining that case was her fear that Bourbon would do something bad to Ran and Conan. If Bourbon used another method Vermouth wouldn't even be there in the first place.

Using emotion as an excuse is very simple, since it doesn't have to rely on reason. Bourbon has been around the Mouri this whole time, and has even saved Conan multiple times, and only now is she feeling "anxious" about him being around them, not to mention that she changed the subject immediately. Conan, who didn't hear her excuse, was under the impression that she came to investigate the dying message(File 958) because that's what her actions indicates(and actions speaks louder than words).
If Bourbon decided to use her help, there's no need for an excuse, since she would naturally have the opportunity to get involved in the investigation.

The question here is why Vermouth will have a personal hatred against Rum and even consider roaming around with the "U" shard?

What we know as fact is that she was gripping an object out of anger towards something related to what Danno was saying. To measure that "personal hatred" to the level of someone hurting you directly, that's making an assumption, an explanation, not stating facts. What I mentioned was also an explanation that doesn't contradict the facts.
As for why she brought the "U" shard:

it's possible that she brought that shard with her in order to convince Conan that she's Asaka if the opportunity arises(since it would at least imply that she was there in the crime scene if she showed it to him).

c) Even if Kuroda has a scary face, does it warrant someone to glare back at him. Why would she shoot an unnerving glare to a random person who has a burnt face?

He's not a random person, he's a suspicious-looking man who happens to be a witness in a case that she's involved in. Reacting to Kuroda that way is established to be normal, but her glaring back is not, and further portrays her as "not normal"(which Rumi and Vermouth is).

Your explanation doesn't hold good. Bourbon mentioned that Vermouth was more than welcome to accompany him.(He was ready to supply her some personal info Asuza so that the cosplay look normal) So why she would ditch her unsuspecting partner and try to play the role of a worried surrogate mother?
She could even have disguised herself as someone closer to Hado and sneaked herself in.(She mentions this to Bourbon in the build up.She also mentioned that this was Bourbon's mission not theirs. That's where I find a word loud enough about her thoughts.)

The whole question here is why the hatred is so triggering that Vermouth has to glare at nothingness and at the same-time clutching her pocket? So if you're putting this much emotion in a cold and cunning character you need to come up something more concrete than random speculation about collateral supposed inconvenience caused to her.

So from when shooting unnerving glares to potential suspicious persons become a habit of Vermouth? Just because she is Vermouth would she glare back to someone whom she thinks as a possible suspicious person? If she think Kuroda is suspicious why would she bare her fangs before Kuroda, that will only attract further suspicion.
Just because someone is a suspiciously looking character and involved in a case does it warrant to shoot unprovoked death glares at them? She did this just because she's vermouth sounds like the reasoning, Blood is red because I think red is a pretty cool colour in the first place.

How can Vermouth be present around the crime scene in the first place? What links she did have with the Kohji case to be able to be present over there even before the authorities came in?(not the forced Asaka poisoning link)
Even if she was there how had she known that APTX was used?
If you assume that it was a joint mission of Rum and Vermouth then why the Kohji case scenario is only Rum's problem but not Vermouth's?
If Vermouth is so interested in Asaka why she wasn't present during Hotta Gaito case?

[Kor]

So apologies if it was already written somewhere in those walls of text, but why exactly would Vermouth have bothered to take a glass shard from the crime scene in the first place back when it happened? Souvenir?

[MeiTanteixX]

MeiTanteixX you said this in the first part of the theory. In that case why don't you believe the same applies for Chikara? We were told of a Rum BO member on the move almost 100 files ago and then the very next chapter we are introduced to Chikara in 898 to 902 during the shogi match against Shuichiki

It's not that I don't believe that it doesn't apply, it's that there's no substance in Chikara's characterization beyond being just a shogi rival(which is out of character for Gosho if Chikara is important). Comparing Wakita with Chikara is not a fair comparison btw, since Wakita not only had a proper introduction, but a whole case dedicated to his characterization(ultimately ending up being full of clues). This doesn't mean that Chikara is a lost cause, just that he has yet show any indication of importance.

So why she would ditch her unsuspecting partner

Because directly saying that she wants to get involved as Asuza would immediately make Bourbon suspicious. Being suspicious of someone doesn't mean being uncooperative. It's not that she wasn't expecting Bourbon to help, but rather that she's risking him reporting her activity to the Boss, or anyone else that is curious about her motives. Covering her motives with their secret promise has less consequences(since his promise and her secret is only meant to be between them)

Even if she was there how had she known that APTX
prototype drug was used?

Black Organization members report back their activities to the Boss and also register all the people that ingested the prototype drug.

If Vermouth is so interested in Asaka why she wasn't present during Hotta Gaito case?

We don't know if she was or not, but we know that the BO were aware of Hotta's Kohji case knowledge.

So apologies if it was already written somewhere in those walls of text, but why exactly would Vermouth have bothered to take a glass shard from the crime scene in the first place back when it happened? Souvenir?

If the BO suspected that the hand-mirror holds a secret message early on, then perhaps she noticed its similarity to a shogi piece and took it with her in case it meant something. She might've already figured out that it was hinting to the "Uma" piece, after realizing that an object was missing from Kohji's palm(which Conan has yet to notice).

[Zerozaki4869]

So why she would ditch her unsuspecting partner

Because directly saying that she wants to get involved as Asuza would immediately make Bourbon suspicious. Being suspicious of someone doesn't mean being uncooperative. It's not that she wasn't expecting Bourbon to help, but rather that she's risking him reporting her activity to the Boss, or anyone else that is curious about her motives. Covering her motives with their secret promise has less consequences(since his promise and her secret is only meant to be between them)

You totally misinterpreted my gripe. Why in the first place Vermouth would risk being in the vicinity of Bourbon while being Asuza, she could have cosplayed someone else and got the necessary information about the song.
If she was so interested she could have taken the lead instead of Bourbon, but she ignores this stuff and comes as a person about whom she has no prior information and potentially risking her identity but the same Vermouth is absolutely not seen anywhere during the Hotta case?
Also this perticular case was not about Asaka, it was more about why Asaca has a C instead of a K or why the dying message of Haneda Kohji gets used in a popular rockstar's song? It had nothing to do with "Asaka." So even by that logic all we can concur that Vermouth is interested in Kohji case not in Asaka. If that was the case then Hotta was more likely to get a visit from Vermouth not Hado.

Even if she was there how had she known that APTX
prototype drug was used?

Black Organization members report back their activities to the Boss and also register all the people that ingested the prototype drug.

Again misinterpreted my gripe. If Vermouth was there just after the crime how could she know that it was done by using APTX (she can only know once Rum reports back, not before that)? Why she would even go for taking bits and pieces of the crime scene when she has no idea about it(it wasn't her mission else Gin would have told it to Vodka when they're discussing the soul detective murder case ? Or are you suggesting that she stole it from the exhibits?

If Vermouth is so interested in Asaka why she wasn't present during Hotta Gaito case?

[/quote]We don't know if she was or not, but we know that the BO were aware of Hotta's Kohji case knowledge.

That's my biggest gripe with you. Bo despite being aware of Hotta's claims shows no viable action in soul detective murder but throws in total weight behind why a random song used "C" instead of "K" totally proves that BO gives a damn about Asaka but is very edgy about the dying message. So if your theory was correct(no corpse of Asaka so potentially an unconfirmed kill) the BO would be more interested in Hotta's claims not in the song.

[Kor]

If the BO suspected that the hand-mirror holds a secret message early on, then perhaps she noticed its similarity to a shogi piece and took it with her in case it meant something. She might've already figured out that it was hinting to the "Uma" piece, after realizing that an object was missing from Kohji's palm(which Conan has yet to notice).

I don't recall any indication that Vermouth is versed in shogi, nor that she's such an epic detective who can solve mysteries faster than Conan or Akai.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

So apologies if it was already written somewhere in those walls of text, but why exactly would Vermouth have bothered to take a glass shard from the crime scene in the first place back when it happened? Souvenir?

If the BO suspected that the hand-mirror holds a secret message early on, then perhaps she noticed its similarity to a shogi piece and took it with her in case it meant something. She might've already figured out that it was hinting to the "Uma" piece, after realizing that an object was missing from Kohji's palm(which Conan has yet to notice).

When you say "Uma" piece are you referring to the 桂馬 (cassia horse) "Knight" piece or are you referring to the 龍馬 (dragon horse) "Promoted Bishop" piece ?

Although the Knight piece is usually symbolized as a guy on a horse or just a horse in Chess, in Shogi it's usually abbreviated as 桂 (kei), where as the Promoted Bishop piece is usually abbreviated as 馬 (uma).

[MeiTanteixX]

So apologies if it was already written somewhere in those walls of text, but why exactly would Vermouth have bothered to take a glass shard from the crime scene in the first place back when it happened? Souvenir?

If the BO suspected that the hand-mirror holds a secret message early on, then perhaps she noticed its similarity to a shogi piece and took it with her in case it meant something. She might've already figured out that it was hinting to the "Uma" piece, after realizing that an object was missing from Kohji's palm(which Conan has yet to notice).

When you say "Uma" piece are you referring to the 桂馬 (cassia horse) "Knight" piece or are you referring to the 龍馬 (dragon horse) "Promoted Bishop" piece ?

Although the Knight piece is usually symbolized as a guy on a horse or just a horse in Chess, in Shogi it's usually abbreviated as 桂 (kei), where as the Promoted Bishop piece is usually abbreviated as 馬 (uma).

Latter.

[Kor]

What I also don't get is, if you believe there was a shogi piece in the crime scene as part of a dying message, why should Kouji bother to break a shard of glass in a very specific manner in order to somehow hint that a shogi piece is related. The shogi piece should already be there, no?
Besides, if you do believe that there was a shogi piece in the crime scene, isn't it far more simple to just assume that whatever Rumi has in her pockets is indeed a shogi piece and not a shard of glass that's supposed to hint at a shogi piece? Your method is simply over-complicating everything by assuming Vermouth is playing some sort of 4D chess and that there's still a yet-to-show-up Asaka who does have the shogi piece.

Now I'm not gonna really argue against all the tiny specifics of your theories cause others can probably do that, but here's a different perspective: Do you actually hope for said theories to be correct? Cause based on how it seems to me, Gosho would have to embark on some pretty atrocious writing (even more than usual) if he goes with what you propose.

Wakita Kanenori is the closest subordinate of the boss and the one that drugged Mary. He might be a mentor figure to Gin.

At this point this seems like a very odd conclusion. Far as I can tell there's been no indication of Gin having a mentor figure nor that there's yet some other close subordinate to the boss going around (who isn't Rum) that the readers should be aware about. I mean, maybe down the road Gosho may indicate that there is such a role, but so far, there isn't, so it hardly seems like an appropriate answer at this point. It's sort of the equivalent of suggesting the culprit used a boomerang to achieve some murder trick when it hasn't been indicated that a boomerang can be the answer.

Wakasa Rumi is Vermouth in disguise. She is trying to pose as Asaka in order to get Conan's help in solving the dying message so that she can find and eliminate the real Asaka. Rumi got a hold of the "U" shard from Kohji's crime scene, which she was planning on showing to Conan when she got the chance.

So you're basically suggesting that Rumi is actually Vermouth in disguise, who entered a school in order to get closer to him for some sort of objective? Isn't this a bit too repetitive? Like, we've been there and we've done that. Sure, Gosho is at fault for pretty bad repetitions, so I'm not saying "it won't happen cause it'd be silly writing", I'm just saying that no one should realistically want this to be the case. Not to mention that once again doing a disguises showdown is boring at this point. It's no longer cathartic to the reader.
Further more, by having Rumi be Vermouth, that means she suddenly has these abilities that have never been indicated before. We've never seen her fighting and there's been no indication she's some super detective (as I mentioned earlier).
Also, when you first suggested the glass shard thing, I noted that it would make Rumi a moron, cause who in their right mind would go around with a glass shard in their pocket or hold it tightly. So if Vermouth is Rumi, that'd make Vermouth to be the moron based on your theory.

If Iori is Rum, he's 35 years old and was actually 18 when he killed Amanda and Kohji 17 years ago.

This is circular reasoning, but let's put that aside for now. I'm absolutely baffled by people who want or think that Mark can be Rum (or a BO underling, or anything related to the plot in general). He's the butler of a creepy high school stalker girl who has the hots for Heiji. The only reason he showed up is because he was stalking Heiji. Not only would this make him quite a ridiculous candidate, it doesn't make for a good narrative or story. Conan comes upon Rum because he's a butler of a teenage girl with a silly crush on some boy from Osaka and it just so happens that it all took place when Heiji was visiting Conan? Does this sound like a satisfying form of storytelling?
But hey, Conan met most of the characters by some sort of crazy silly coincidences that make for lazy writing, so by all means this can all be true. I'm just advocating that no one should hope for these theories to be correct because the consequences on the text would be pretty dire.

[alphajjc]

What I also don't get is, if you believe there was a shogi piece in the crime scene as part of a dying message, why should Kouji bother to break a shard of glass in a very specific manner in order to somehow hint that a shogi piece is related. The shogi piece should already be there, no?
Besides, if you do believe that there was a shogi piece in the crime scene, isn't it far more simple to just assume that whatever Rumi has in her pockets is indeed a shogi piece and not a shard of glass that's supposed to hint at a shogi piece? Your method is simply over-complicating everything by assuming Vermouth is playing some sort of 4D chess and that there's still a yet-to-show-up Asaka who does have the shogi piece.

Now I'm not gonna really argue against all the tiny specifics of your theories cause others can probably do that, but here's a different perspective: Do you actually hope for said theories to be correct? Cause based on how it seems to me, Gosho would have to embark on some pretty atrocious writing (even more than usual) if he goes with what you propose.

Wakita Kanenori is the closest subordinate of the boss and the one that drugged Mary. He might be a mentor figure to Gin.

At this point this seems like a very odd conclusion. Far as I can tell there's been no indication of Gin having a mentor figure nor that there's yet some other close subordinate to the boss going around (who isn't Rum) that the readers should be aware about. I mean, maybe down the road Gosho may indicate that there is such a role, but so far, there isn't, so it hardly seems like an appropriate answer at this point. It's sort of the equivalent of suggesting the culprit used a boomerang to achieve some murder trick when it hasn't been indicated that a boomerang can be the answer.

Wakasa Rumi is Vermouth in disguise. She is trying to pose as Asaka in order to get Conan's help in solving the dying message so that she can find and eliminate the real Asaka. Rumi got a hold of the "U" shard from Kohji's crime scene, which she was planning on showing to Conan when she got the chance.

So you're basically suggesting that Rumi is actually Vermouth in disguise, who entered a school in order to get closer to him for some sort of objective? Isn't this a bit too repetitive? Like, we've been there and we've done that. Sure, Gosho is at fault for pretty bad repetitions, so I'm not saying "it won't happen cause it'd be silly writing", I'm just saying that no one should realistically want this to be the case. Not to mention that once again doing a disguises showdown is boring at this point. It's no longer cathartic to the reader.
Further more, by having Rumi be Vermouth, that means she suddenly has these abilities that have never been indicated before. We've never seen her fighting and there's been no indication she's some super detective (as I mentioned earlier).
Also, when you first suggested the glass shard thing, I noted that it would make Rumi a moron, cause who in their right mind would go around with a glass shard in their pocket or hold it tightly. So if Vermouth is Rumi, that'd make Vermouth to be the moron based on your theory.

If Iori is Rum, he's 35 years old and was actually 18 when he killed Amanda and Kohji 17 years ago.

This is circular reasoning, but let's put that aside for now. I'm absolutely baffled by people who want or think that Mark can be Rum (or a BO underling, or anything related to the plot in general). He's the butler of a creepy high stalker girl who has the hots for Heiji. The only reason he showed up is because he was stalking Heiji. Not only would this make him quite a ridiculous candidate, it doesn't make for a good narrative or story. Conan comes upon Rum because he's a butler of a teenage girl with a silly crush on some boy from Osaka and it just so happens that it all took place when Heiji was visiting Conan? Does this sound like a satisfying form of storytelling?
But hey, Conan met most of the characters by some sort of crazy silly coincidences that make for lazy writing, so by all means this can all be true. I'm just advocating that no one should hope for these theories to be correct because the consequences on the text would be pretty dire.

But Gosho doesn't even do the DB mysteries in canon anymore. So what is the purpose of having these silly encounters with Iori and this teenage girl? If he isn't having alot of filler now why are we having this? What do we have to gain from these encounters?

I don't believe he is Rum but i believe he is working with him