What is bothering me for a long time...

[wendyqren]

interesting "novel" (u called it that way right?) i like it, really...i never think that okino is that suspicious but after reading ur essay i have a big idea and some little facts pop up on my head which reminds me that yeah, she might really be a member of BO...anyway, i have a little bit different kind of thought with you...i think it's possible that okino knows all along that rena is CIA and that she's seeking for help for her brother and that is why okino introduced her to mouri kogorou. that is if you believe that okino is akai's secret informant. and then it will make more sense because if in fact okino knows rena is CIA then she might also know about ethan hondou, which she told akai in secret. so is it possible that she is a NOC from some interpol or intelligence agency who went into BO?

[Abs.]

There's too many fake bad guys that are actually good guys.

If this keeps up, 60% or more of the B.O. will turn out to be good guys.

We need more fake good guys that turn out to be bad guys.

[Kor]

I'm taking it to mean Akai was hoping for or expecting someone else, someone that would decisively break the case for them, to show up.

So does that mean Akai knew it was a trap?

And didn't warn Jodie?

The whole setup of that scene, with Akai showing up "to save the day," is strange upon careful examination.

-Calvados being able to commit suicide with a firearm that Akai missed confiscating from him is extremely suspicious:
1) Akai missed finding a gun on someone?  Akai isn't some dumb grunt.
2) Calvados had two broken legs.  He was surely going to get captured by the FBI and be interrogated.  I get that.  He was loyal to the Organization and decided to not give the FBI anything at all.  I get that.  Was his pistol loaded with just one round?  Why didn't he at least try to kill Akai or Jodie, or even Sherry, first?  If the distance was too far, he could have waited for Akai or Jodie to come and haul him in, and then pull the gun.  He could have counted on getting killed by their return fire, or waited to commit suicide with his last shot.

-Vermouth, pretty much cornered, decides to try to kill Jodie anyway, even though Akai is sure to be able to head her off.  Why didn't she try to kill Akai?

-Why did Akai walk up conspicuously and deliberately to where Jodie and Vermouth were, and not take a sneak-shot, or pin Vermouth down from another direction?

-Why didn't Akai hit Vermouth's legs if he knew she had a bulletproof vest on?

-Without prompt, the Boss mails Vermouth immediately after the botched operation, telling her to return to his/her side.  How did he/she know it went sour?  Where was he/she?  Was someone else actually there to relay this information to the Boss?

---Or was it Calvados that notified the Boss?  Akai missed a gun, AND a cellphone?  Gee, Akai must have failed FBI Academy.






I don't know what Akai's game is or was, but he seems to enjoy letting the B.O. members get away as much as he loves battling them.

I think this whole thing in episode 345 with Akai is because Gosho tried to make Akai look cool but failed to deliver it without creating some obvious holes.

[mangaluva]

I kinda think that maybe Yoko was originally meant to be Vermouth, who herself was introduced as an actress in a murder case, but when it dragged out it got switched to Chris Vineyard. So early clues may have lost significance. She's largely become convenient for bringing them into cases involving famous people, now, such as Rena.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

i don't have enough time to write much, but i want to thank you for creating this topic. i actually thought that this forum was dead. now we have a very nice discussion.  :-*

Oi oi, just wait for the next plot related case. It's just slow right now...
Edit: The anime people are soon going to get the first scar Akai case. That should heat things up over on that end of things a little.
Edit Edit: No comments on Gin and Akai originally being the same character before they were separated by Gosho?

[Kor]

Edit Edit: No comments on Gin and Akai originally being the same character before they were separated by Gosho?

The only thing I can come up with is a bunch of Dragon Ball Z refrences. Gin split himself from his good part in order to become more evil. his good part was called Akai (because everyone knows that red is the exact opposite of silver  ) (The proof that Akai is still alive is because Gin isn't dead yet. If one died, the other one should have died as well)
Another one - since Detective Conan has gotten really long, the 30 minutes time limit has passed (DC universe 30 minutes is like a year in the real world you know) so the two finally seperated from the fusion...and then Akai betrayed the organization, and Gin is searching for him because he feels hurt that the only man who was ever inside him would betray him like that.

[kholoudsafir]

originally intended to be part of the Organization, perhaps taking a role similar to Vermouth's, but as the story ran longer than expected -Gosho only thought it would run for three months- he reorganized the characters into other roles to allow for a more in depth storyline and Yoko Okino "lost" her Organization status.
[/quote]
may be...

So it seems that there isn't enough time in Yoko's life to make everything fit but I agree that Yoko could be more than what she claims. The Boss or Akai's girlfriend...I don't really think so, but Kir's CIA contact or hidden member of the B.O. is possible.

probably...
I am confused now but these two theories look the most possible ones, though they are not the same

[Abs.]

Edit Edit: No comments on Gin and Akai originally being the same character before they were separated by Gosho?

Don't ruin the dream, Chekhov!

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Edit Edit: No comments on Gin and Akai originally being the same character before they were separated by Gosho?

Don't ruin the dream, Chekhov!

It was ruined as soon as a read Kor's crack theory post. I think I may be scarred for life... Now I will attempt to reassemble the pieces of my broken brain and get back on topic.

The reason I brought that up before was because I got to thinking that perhaps Gin's backstory would be similar to Akai's if that was the case. Maybe Gin has a dead/terminally ill lover or relative whom he desired/s to help and thus is his reason for working for the org. I'm not too hopeful though, because given his personality that cares about others like someone would care about dirty dishes, Gin might simply like killing people and thus joined the org because they provide job satisfaction.
My other theory I have been putzing around with (besides how Kogoro's relatives might be connected to the org.) is who could have been involved with the accident that resulted in the "deaths" of Haibara's parents. I strongly bet Vermouth was involved in that incident (which might also have something to do with her aging wonkiness), but I wonder if Gin is connected to that as well? While I'm sure his royally messed up personality would account for the desire to hunt down and murder Sherry, perhaps some animosity he felt towards Ai's parents could fuel it as well?

I am pretty sure Akai's two girlfriends (remember when he mentioned that having a personality where he loved two people wasn't handy?) were originally Jodie and Akemi. Akemi is an obvious pick given memories during the red vs. black arc. I'm no expert on Japanese culture, but Jodie calling him by a nickname without an honorific (Shuu) is pretty forward by Japanese standards even for Jodie who is a rather forward person. It would make sense though if they had a relationship. My brain is slow today, but I think the other characters hinted that was the case during the baker bank heist case.

[kholoudsafir]

sorry Chekhov MacGuffin for quoting you badly, in my last post, my monkeys ( children) were driving me crazy, that I posted without previewing.

[Kor]

Edit Edit: No comments on Gin and Akai originally being the same character before they were separated by Gosho?

Don't ruin the dream, Chekhov!

It was ruined as soon as a read Kor's crack theory post. I think I may be scarred for life... Now I will attempt to reassemble the pieces of my broken brain and get back on topic.

mission successfully completed  ;D

I am pretty sure Akai's two girlfriends (remember when he mentioned that having a personality where he loved two people wasn't handy?) were originally Jodie and Akemi. Akemi is an obvious pick given memories during the red vs. black arc. I'm no expert on Japanese culture, but Jodie calling him by a nickname without an honorific (Shuu) is pretty forward by Japanese standards even for Jodie who is a rather forward person. It would make sense though if they had a relationship. My brain is slow today, but I think the other characters hinted that was the case during the baker bank heist case.

I don't see how it's even questionable. If he wouldn't be referring to Jodie, who else? Besides, Gosho wouldn't let Akai's love story end with letting him have a dead girlfriend, so he gives him Jodie (and Jodie needs a lover as well...unless you're a fan of "CaDie" or JoMel" pairing)

[texascoffeegirl]

First of all, thank you very much for all the input guys and for the translation of what Akai said.

I don't really have much time either now, so I make it short (haha). If Akai was indeed waiting for another target to show up who was not Vermouth nor Sherry or Gin, then it would be worth thinking about whether the target was there.

I mean, try to see it from this angle: Vermouth killed Jodie's father - an FBI agent - and the fingerprints of Sharon Vineyard were found on the glasses, nailing her down to the crime scene and connecting her to the person Chris Vineyard; and yet she wasn't arrested. It is known, that not just the FBI, but other people (like that journalist who was mentioned) doubted the person Chris Vineyard generally, which leads to the question why Vermouth, a suspected killer, was never arrested despite the evidence (glasses and eyewitness)? What would justify it for the FBI and the CIA to let a killer purposely run around? Because they want to have the bigger fish behind Vermouth. Which underlines again, why Akai's target was not Vermouth at all. They tailed Vermouth cause they hoped, sooner or later she has to get in contact with that target, who might be even a step closer to the boss.

And there is another trace of thought, that has to be considered. Vermouth is watched by the FBI and the CIA for a very long time. She knows she is being watched and yet she is not hiding. She makes public appearences (Pisco arc) and still gets missions from the big boss. Why? I mean, granted, she is very skilled and knows how to get rid off her little followers, but dont you think this a very high risk the big boss is taking here? Other members were killed for being a lesser threat to the organization, which makes me believe that Vermouth was purposely thrown out to the public. There is a chance that Vermouth is simply being used by the BIg Boss to reveal the enemys of the BO. Vermouth is a decoy. It is like a war scene. For the general to know whether there is an ambush ahead, he sends out a single soldier and watches whether the soldier gets killed or not. With Vermouth running around in public every now and then, the Big boss always will know, where Akai and Co is.

That's why it is so important for Conan to not reveal his true identity. This is Conan's biggest trump card. And for an unknown reason, Vermouth let him have this trump card.

But then again, you don't send a decoy out there without somebody who watches the decoy's back. This is a two-men job. It s kind  of suspicious for the decoy, to walk down a street, then turning around and trying to count the number of agents following her. I' d like to get to the point that Vermouth has a partner and/or somebody who is watching her - and reporting directly to the Big Boss.

Chapt. 41 chapt. 10 page 13, "The rotten apple", Vermouth has pulled a stunt that went wrong and the only one who seemed to have known about the stunt was Calvados, and yet the Big Boss writes Vermouth an sms and gives us the impression that he/she already knows what was going on. - beause the target, the other person Akai was hoping to show up, was there and reported to the Boss. And Vermouth didnt seem to be too surprised of the sms, making me conclude that she knows she is being watched by the big boss, which would explain, from Gin's point of view, why Vermouth has so much of freedom in the organization, cause she is indeed watched by somebody else.

I mean, Calvados, the sniper, who's legs were broken by Akai, waited to the very last moment before killing himself. In fact, he waited for Vermouth to win the situation , pick him up and they both disappear. But Vermouth couldn't win the situation and had to escape, the minute she escaped Calvados knew he had no means to get away from the FBI so he shot himself. If Calvados would have known of another BOmember hanging around in this area, he most likely would have informed this person to come and pick him up. But Calvados didn't. Cause he didn't know, somebody else was there.  Cause this person is a mystery in the BO for himself. Equally to Bourbon.

Question is, who is this other person? And does it mean, that since Vermouth is already a very long time in the picture, that this person is too? Which opens the possibility to that we maybe already know this person?

[Kor]

First of all, thank you very much for all the input guys and for the translation of what Akai said.

I don't really have much time either now, so I make it short (haha). If Akai was indeed waiting for another target to show up who was not Vermouth nor Sherry or Gin, then it would be worth thinking about whether the target was there.

I mean, try to see it from this angle: Vermouth killed Jodie's father - an FBI agent - and the fingerprints of Sharon Vineyard were found on the glasses, nailing her down to the crime scene and connecting her to the person Chris Vineyard; and yet she wasn't arrested. It is known, that not just the FBI, but other people (like that journalist who was mentioned) doubted the person Chris Vineyard generally, which leads to the question why Vermouth, a suspected killer, was never arrested despite the evidence (glasses and eyewitness)? What would justify it for the FBI and the CIA to let a killer purposely run around? Because they want to have the bigger fish behind Vermouth. Which underlines again, why Akai's target was not Vermouth at all. They tailed Vermouth cause they hoped, sooner or later she has to get in contact with that target, who might be even a step closer to the boss.

And there is another trace of thought, that has to be considered. Vermouth is watched by the FBI and the CIA for a very long time. She knows she is being watched and yet she is not hiding. She makes public appearences (Pisco arc) and still gets missions from the big boss. Why? I mean, granted, she is very skilled and knows how to get rid off her little followers, but dont you think this a very high risk the big boss is taking here? Other members were killed for being a lesser threat to the organization, which makes me believe that Vermouth was purposely thrown out to the public. There is a chance that Vermouth is simply being used by the BIg Boss to reveal the enemys of the BO. Vermouth is a decoy. It is like a war scene. For the general to know whether there is an ambush ahead, he sends out a single soldier and watches whether the soldier gets killed or not. With Vermouth running around in public every now and then, the Big boss always will know, where Akai and Co is.

That's why it is so important for Conan to not reveal his true identity. This is Conan's biggest trump card. And for an unknown reason, Vermouth let him have this trump card.

But then again, you don't send a decoy out there without somebody who watches the decoy's back. This is a two-men job. It s kind  of suspicious for the decoy, to walk down a street, then turning around and trying to count the number of agents following her. I' d like to get to the point that Vermouth has a partner and/or somebody who is watching her - and reporting directly to the Big Boss.

Chapt. 41 chapt. 10 page 13, "The rotten apple", Vermouth has pulled a stunt that went wrong and the only one who seemed to have known about the stunt was Calvados, and yet the Big Boss writes Vermouth an sms and gives us the impression that he/she already knows what was going on. - beause the target, the other person Akai was hoping to show up, was there and reported to the Boss. And Vermouth didnt seem to be too surprised of the sms, making me conclude that she knows she is being watched by the big boss, which would explain, from Gin's point of view, why Vermouth has so much of freedom in the organization, cause she is indeed watched by somebody else.

I mean, Calvados, the sniper, who's legs were broken by Akai, waited to the very last moment before killing himself. In fact, he waited for Vermouth to win the situation , pick him up and they both disappear. But Vermouth couldn't win the situation and had to escape, the minute she escaped Calvados knew he had no means to get away from the FBI so he shot himself. If Calvados would have known of another BOmember hanging around in this area, he most likely would have informed this person to come and pick him up. But Calvados didn't. Cause he didn't know, somebody else was there.  Cause this person is a mystery in the BO for himself. Equally to Bourbon.

Question is, who is this other person? And does it mean, that since Vermouth is already a very long time in the picture, that this person is too? Which opens the possibility to that we maybe already know this person?

I do wonder though about Calvados...after all we don't know who he is, so with DC's logic he could still be around. *Calvados somehow escaped and faked his death and went to a detective academy, read all the Sherlok Holmes novels and got back to the B.O. under a new codename - Bourbon. After all, Bourbon hates Akai the most, why? Because the guy broke his legs and shamed him*
crossed my mind but very unlikely.  8)
Scar Akai: I am Bourbon...and I'm also Calvados...and I'm also Akai...so Okiya is just an unrelated person

[TheBlind]

I mean, try to see it from this angle: Vermouth killed Jodie's father - an FBI agent - and the fingerprints of Sharon Vineyard were found on the glasses, nailing her down to the crime scene and connecting her to the person Chris Vineyard; and yet she wasn't arrested. It is known, that not just the FBI, but other people (like that journalist who was mentioned) doubted the person Chris Vineyard generally, which leads to the question why Vermouth, a suspected killer, was never arrested despite the evidence (glasses and eyewitness)? What would justify it for the FBI and the CIA to let a killer purposely run around? Because they want to have the bigger fish behind Vermouth. Which underlines again, why Akai's target was not Vermouth at all. They tailed Vermouth cause they hoped, sooner or later she has to get in contact with that target, who might be even a step closer to the boss.

Simple answer, Gosho has spoiled the reader by having all the criminals confess to avoid the actual work of having a legal system. In Vermouth's case it would be a huge mess because the legal system would have to get involved because Vermouth would never confess; so they didn't go after Vermouth because they really can't get her. If they went to court with only a young Jodie and a pair of glasses they would lose on all ends. First, Sharon Vineyard being a star would mean a high profile trial with a high profile lawyer defending her. All this publicity would just tip the FBI's cards to the B.O. with the only reward being Vermouth and ONLY Vermouth behind jail. That wouldn't accomplish anything since Vermouth would most likely be eliminated or refuse to talk even if they won. So the FBI wouldn't get the B.O. just a single member while exposing themselves. Second, Jodie's testimony wouldn't hold much water since she's a child and the only eye witness. The defense can just say she imagined it all after watching a TV show with Sharon before the poor poor accident that happened at her house.

The reason they can't go after Chris is because legally she isn't Sharon the person that committed the crime. So they would have to do all the work of proving Chris and Sharon are the same person and present that to a court of law. The best and easiest way would be to catch Vermouth while she's trying to committing a crime(they failed horribly) like they did with Kir.

And there is another trace of thought, that has to be considered. Vermouth is watched by the FBI and the CIA for a very long time. She knows she is being watched and yet she is not hiding. She makes public appearences (Pisco arc) and still gets missions from the big boss. Why? I mean, granted, she is very skilled and knows how to get rid off her little followers, but dont you think this a very high risk the big boss is taking here? Other members were killed for being a lesser threat to the organization, which makes me believe that Vermouth was purposely thrown out to the public. There is a chance that Vermouth is simply being used by the BIg Boss to reveal the enemys of the BO. Vermouth is a decoy. It is like a war scene. For the general to know whether there is an ambush ahead, he sends out a single soldier and watches whether the soldier gets killed or not. With Vermouth running around in public every now and then, the Big boss always will know, where Akai and Co is.

They can't touch Chris Vineyard even if they suspect her and Chris knows this, so why not walk around freely?
As long as she doesn't break the law they can't do anything but watch her which is why she used that to her benefit in Japan.

But then again, you don't send a decoy out there without somebody who watches the decoy's back. This is a two-men job. It s kind  of suspicious for the decoy, to walk down a street, then turning around and trying to count the number of agents following her. I' d like to get to the point that Vermouth has a partner and/or somebody who is watching her - and reporting directly to the Big Boss.

Chapt. 41 chapt. 10 page 13, "The rotten apple", Vermouth has pulled a stunt that went wrong and the only one who seemed to have known about the stunt was Calvados, and yet the Big Boss writes Vermouth an sms and gives us the impression that he/she already knows what was going on. - beause the target, the other person Akai was hoping to show up, was there and reported to the Boss. And Vermouth didnt seem to be too surprised of the sms, making me conclude that she knows she is being watched by the big boss, which would explain, from Gin's point of view, why Vermouth has so much of freedom in the organization, cause she is indeed watched by somebody else.

I don't think so. You forget that Vermouth messaged "The Boss" first then got the reply to come back. She most likely told him everything that happened(minus Conan and Ai) and he judged that she went overboard. If someone was trailing Vermouth, they would of informed "The Boss" that Conan=Shinichi since he practically revealed it himself. They would also inform "The Boss" that Vermouth located her target(Sherry) but did not report that or the fact that a 5 year old Detective bested her. This would probably have Gin doing his happy dance because he would receive the order to kill her. You can just tell Vermouth hurt Gin deeply somehow, probably refused his chocolate at the annual B.O. dance.

I mean, Calvados, the sniper, who's legs were broken by Akai, waited to the very last moment before killing himself. In fact, he waited for Vermouth to win the situation , pick him up and they both disappear. But Vermouth couldn't win the situation and had to escape, the minute she escaped Calvados knew he had no means to get away from the FBI so he shot himself. If Calvados would have known of another BOmember hanging around in this area, he most likely would have informed this person to come and pick him up. But Calvados didn't. Cause he didn't know, somebody else was there.  Cause this person is a mystery in the BO for himself. Equally to Bourbon.

That's an interesting look at it. I always assumed Calvados was knocked unconscious and restrained, which explains why it took him so long to kill himself.

[texascoffeegirl]

If they went to court with only a young Jodie and a pair of glasses they would lose on all ends. First, Sharon Vineyard being a star would mean a high profile trial with a high profile lawyer defending her. All this publicity would just tip the FBI's cards to the B.O. with the only reward being Vermouth and ONLY Vermouth behind jail.

In the end, we are both on some page: that they can't/ won't arrest Vermouth cause in the long run, nothing would be accomplished with it.

They can't touch Chris Vineyard even if they suspect her and Chris knows this, so why not walk around freely?
As long as she doesn't break the law they can't do anything but watch her which is why she used that to her benefit in Japan.

Correct, but with a little spot on it: Vermouth doesn't walk around freely anymore. In Vol.34 chap. 2 p. 7 Conan states that since the Pisco arc, Chris Vineyard hasn't make any public appearances. Why suddenly now? And moreover, why does she wear a bulletproof vest (like Gin)?

I don't think so. You forget that Vermouth messaged "The Boss" first then got the reply to come back. She most likely told him everything that happened(minus Conan and Ai) and he judged that she went overboard. If someone was trailing Vermouth, they would of informed "The Boss" that Conan=Shinichi since he practically revealed it himself. They would also inform "The Boss" that Vermouth located her target(Sherry) but did not report that or the fact that a 5 year old Detective bested her. This would probably have Gin doing his happy dance because he would receive the order to kill her. You can just tell Vermouth hurt Gin deeply somehow, probably refused his chocolate at the annual B.O. dance.

I don't know the anime, but in the manga, the phone rings first then she answers. At least it looks like it to me. And I think you misunderstood me here. I think Vermouth is watched or works together  by or with another BOmember. This person watching her must not have been necessarily in hearing distance.

That's an interesting look at it. I always assumed Calvados was knocked unconscious and restrained, which explains why it took him so long to kill himself.

Who knows?