Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Nix
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Nix »

Fennec wrote:
Spoiler: for length
These are all very good points. On the aspect of romance, it's nice to see someone resolve a romance subplot without waiting until the very end, so we can actually see the relationship in progress. So many series will end with two characters, major or minor, finally agreeing to give dating a shot. This is a refreshing change of pace, and may be part of why Gosho is advancing some of them so much. However, if you look at Shin/Ran and Kazuha/Heiji, you'll see their development isn't at that point yet. Conan/Shinichi has obvious restrictions that prevent him and Ran from advancing their relationship too much, but as the main characters of such a long story, it's not too strange they would confess their feelings more in the middle. It adds to the tension between Conan and Ran. Kazuha and Heiji, though, are almost always together and yet have made very little progress. They'll probably be one of the biggest "end-is-near" warning flags. ^_^

Ran's suspicions seem like they're well-founded. Of course, it could also just be fans of a long-running series looking for a single sign of plot advancement. If you're desperate enough, you'll take what you can get. Of course, with Detective Conan, those little hints can often prove to be correct, so there's that. I think at this point, though, Ran probably understands that there's something bigger going on; I mean, he's suddenly a little kid. There's not many explanations aside from magic. And he's made such a big deal of hiding it, it's clear he's not just doing it to get close to her. After all, they were already pretty close to begin with.

As for where the arc will go from here... I actually had a dream that Amuro was killed in a flood, and I thought to myself, "That's probably the only way to end his appearance without Conan being found out by the BO." However, I can't help but wonder if there are other ways and paths this arc can take. We're all focused on his investigation into Conan, but it could easily be a red herring for the readers as to how the arc will conclude. I mean, sure, he knows where Agasa lives now, but Subaru Okiya (or as I like to call him, Shubaru Akaiya) lives right next door. From what I've seen, he seems more interested in getting Akai than anything else. Honestly? I think he'd be willing to betray the organization to pursue Akai. This arc could easily go one of three ways:

1) It will be a straightforward development: he'll discover the truth about Conan, maybe about Ai, leading to a huge showdown with Vermouth probably thrown into the mix.
2) He will be derailed from his investigation into Conan by the discovery of some sort of definitive proof that Akai is, indeed, alive and end with a big showdown between them, possibly with Sera thrown into the fray. Of course Conan will be involved somehow, being the title character and all.
3) A combination of the other two, which is, honestly, the most likely scenario.

We can't be sure how Bourbon's appearance will end. Since Vermouth is concerned about Conan and Ran, she might end up shooting him if he finds out the truth. I can see Conan or Ran trying to help him as he dies, possibly revealing Conan's identity if it's the latter. Then he could be buried by his good friend, Officer Takagi the First.

Well, to wrap this up, on the note of the end being near... Well, with my luck, it wouldn't surprise me. I tend to get into a manga series literally right before they end. Seriously, it's happened so many times I might as well advertise myself as the Harbinger of the End. :P I'm pretty relieved to find an ongoing series that doesn't end one to six months after picking it up. But right now, I don't see too many signs pointing at a quickly impending end to the series. However, I do see a couple leading to the end of this particular arc... I think Gosho WILL wrap the series up within the next two or three years, though.
I agree about your point on the love relationships, having a ShinRan kiss (confirmed by Gosho) in the end (not confirmed) would feel like the typical happy ending (definitely not the spirit of DC). If we say the series will end in around 4+years, no advancement in those couples will lead to grumpy fans.

@end of arc: Seriously, a showdown with Conan+Ai+possibly Sera and a big fight with Akai at the same time (or maybe not) will be the best thing that's happened in my life. Confirmed by Gosho, we have a big(?) BO case coming up in File 900 for DC's 20th Anniversary, so this could be the one. (Actually, if it can happen earlier than that, that would be even more awesome)

And if the series really ends because of your curse, Fennec, I will never forgive you. >:D
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Pmofmalasia

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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Pmofmalasia »

S.Vineyard wrote: @Agasa: I will most likely lead into Amuro meeting Agasa and Okiya. Meeting Okiya might make him suspisious, since he might wonder why he was allowed to live in the Kudo mansion.

As for finding Haibara, Bourbon might not report it to the BO or Vermouth, since he wants her alive and he already was witness of Vermouth's determination to kill her.
Well since Okiya now knows who Conan really is for sure (Cold Case arc) I'm sure he could cover it up as being due to permission from Yukiko or something.  I don't think the rest of the BO knows of her involvement (only Vermouth) so that wouldn't alert Bourbon.

As for Haibara, I think he would report her to the BO but just avoid letting Vermouth know for as long as possible so she can be taken in.  Especially if he figures out that she shrank.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Pmofmalasia wrote:
S.Vineyard wrote: @Agasa: I will most likely lead into Amuro meeting Agasa and Okiya. Meeting Okiya might make him suspicious, since he might wonder why he was allowed to live in the Kudo mansion.

As for finding Haibara, Bourbon might not report it to the BO or Vermouth, since he wants her alive and he already was witness of Vermouth's determination to kill her.
Well since Okiya now knows who Conan really is for sure (Cold Case arc) I'm sure he could cover it up as being due to permission from Yukiko or something.  I don't think the rest of the BO knows of her involvement (only Vermouth) so that wouldn't alert Bourbon.

As for Haibara, I think he would report her to the BO but just avoid letting Vermouth know for as long as possible so she can be taken in.  Especially if he figures out that she shrank.
I've had some similar thoughts on what Bourbon would do if he found out Haibara or Conan's identity. Since he has recurring character plot armor now, unless Gosho breaks with tradition Amuro will probably be given a motivation to keep Conan's identity secret. (I say Conan here because Amuro is prioritizing investigating Conan right now.) If Bourbon chooses to keep quiet about Conan then he will probably also have to extend that  to Haibara by default because Amuro can't bring in one shrunken child without alerting the Org to the possibility there are others. If Amuro dated Akemi and that is the motive for his dislike of Akai, he might (like everyone else) see Akemi in Ran and feel bad about making her sad by taking away the man she is waiting for. It would dovetail nicely with a Ran's suspicion type plot (most recently seen in the ending of Yuusaku's cold case).
Another motive for secret-keeping might relate to something Amuro did while with Date, but we don't have a lot of backstory there yet.
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by ShadowGuy »

Nix wrote: Just for clarification, the reason why Amuro is investigating Agasa is probably because he thinks Agasa is Akai with a fake identity. In the Detective Nocturne case, Ran mentions a 'Prof. Agasa' who invented the tracking glasses. And when they pass each other in their cars... Amuro gets the wrong idea. And from then on, he's been looking for this 'Professor' until now.
...just in case anyone was wondering ;)
But in the cabin trap case he overheard Ran telling Sera over the phone that the professor drives a yellow Beetle. He should've figured out that there is one more person that's involved with both Conan and the professor.
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Pmofmalasia

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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Pmofmalasia »

ShadowGuy wrote:
Nix wrote: Just for clarification, the reason why Amuro is investigating Agasa is probably because he thinks Agasa is Akai with a fake identity. In the Detective Nocturne case, Ran mentions a 'Prof. Agasa' who invented the tracking glasses. And when they pass each other in their cars... Amuro gets the wrong idea. And from then on, he's been looking for this 'Professor' until now.
...just in case anyone was wondering ;)
But in the cabin trap case he overheard Ran telling Sera over the phone that the professor drives a yellow Beetle. He should've figured out that there is one more person that's involved with both Conan and the professor.
Well since she specifies, "The Professor's beetle," it implies that he could have more than one car.  I think that's why he wanted to steal the pictures in the first place, because he hears that the Professor would be with them, so it would give him an opportunity to investigate Agasa.
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ShadowGuy
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by ShadowGuy »

Pmofmalasia wrote: Well since she specifies, "The Professor's beetle," it implies that he could have more than one car.  I think that's why he wanted to steal the pictures in the first place, because he hears that the Professor would be with them, so it would give him an opportunity to investigate Agasa.
Could be as you said. But it's not usual for the same person to have two old barely working cars at the same time, or is it? One would normally replace these two with a better one. Also during the detectives' nocturne car chase Bourbon did see the door of Okiyas car open. Even if he didn't see a man trying to take out a gun from his jacket and use it to shoot the tyres of the kidnappers car (i'm assuming this is what Okiya was trying to do) he should've deduced that this was the case. One man alone can't do this while trying to steer a car. I don't have definitive proof but i'm sure Bourbon already knows that someone like Okiya exists.


Anyway, as for the Bourbon arc being the penultimate arc, i just don't think so. There's still so much that needs to be answered and i don't think that the final climax of this arc will shed light on more than maybe Akai's personal history and his rivalry with Bourbon. I really do not hope that all the questions that concern the BO will be answered all during the final arc. Also, people in all times have said that "the end is near". I've seen threads from when this forum was still new where people believed that the Bourbon arc would be the last. Maybe some people are so desperate for a conclusion that they begin to think of it being near...
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saorin
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by saorin »

ShadowGuy wrote:
Anyway, as for the Bourbon arc being the penultimate arc, i just don't think so. There's still so much that needs to be answered and i don't think that the final climax of this arc will shed light on more than maybe Akai's personal history and his rivalry with Bourbon. I really do not hope that all the questions that concern the BO will be answered all during the final arc. Also, people in all times have said that "the end is near". I've seen threads from when this forum was still new where people believed that the Bourbon arc would be the last. Maybe some people are so desperate for a conclusion that they begin to think of it being near...
Am I the only one who thinks that there is not SO much to be answered about the BO that it would take more than 4 years (even at Gosho speed) to clear up? oO The only really important things are 1) purpose of the BO; 1a) purpose of APTX4869; 2) Anokata; 3) maybe Fate of the Miyanos.

I think nobody here is "desperate" for DC to end, but I believe it's abosolutely legit to think that after 20 years it wouldn't be out of the question to expect an ending to a series...
Also, I don't understand what you mean... "people thought that the Bourbon arc would be the last" when the forum was "relatively new". What does that have to do with anything? They haven't been proven wrong so far (also, when the forum was new, what was there to know about Bourbon already? oO)
Last edited by saorin on January 16th, 2013, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ShadowGuy
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

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saorin wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that there is not SO much to be answered about the BO that it would take more than 4 years (even at Gosho speed) to clear up? oO The only really important things are 1) purpose of the BO; 1a) purpose of APTX4869; 2) Anokata; 3) maybe Fate of the Miyanos.
We still have all the mysteries surrounding Vermouth (why she doesn't age and what's her real motives etc) and the BOs software agenda unsolved. We don't either know why the CIA are interested in the organisation and many other things. Gosho said also in a recent interview that he may introduce new BO members in the future. It wouldn't surprise me the least if they got their own years long arcs. And no, revealing all that won't take 4 years or less at Goshos speed. I mean honestly, in the last 5+ years that the Bourbons arc has been running, how much more did we learn about the BO? The answer's not much at all.
saorin wrote: Also, I don't understand what you mean... "people thought that the Bourbon arc would be the last" when the forum was "relatively new". What does that have to do with anything? They haven't been proven wrong so far (also, when the forum was new, what was there to know about Bourbon already? oO)
I just meant that people wrongfully thought that the series would end with the Bourbon arc. I know it haven't been proven yet but now no one can seriously claim that this arc will be the last. I mentioned this whole thing just to show that people always have been daydreaming about the "conclusion that will come soon". This thread is no different from the past illusions about how the final arc has already started/is going to start soon.
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saorin
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by saorin »

ShadowGuy wrote:
saorin wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that there is not SO much to be answered about the BO that it would take more than 4 years (even at Gosho speed) to clear up? oO The only really important things are 1) purpose of the BO; 1a) purpose of APTX4869; 2) Anokata; 3) maybe Fate of the Miyanos.
We still have all the mysteries surrounding Vermouth (why she doesn't age and what's her real motives etc) and the BOs software agenda unsolved. We don't either know why the CIA are interested in the organisation and many other things. Gosho said also in a recent interview that he may introduce new BO members in the future. It wouldn't surprise me the least if they got their own years long arcs. And no, revealing all that won't take 4 years or less at Goshos speed. I mean honestly, in the last 5+ years that the Bourbons arc has been running, how much more did we learn about the BO? The answer's not much at all.
Why Vermouth doesn't age is included in the APTX-mystery in my book. As to why the CIA are interested in them ... well, maybe because they're a large syndicate committing crimes and being caught up in a lot of nasty stuff. Still, that is background story for me and not a real "problem" that needs to be solved.
The "software agenda" is what I group under "purpose of the BO" (okay, "goal" might have been the better wording there, my bad) and that might be not SUCH a big and complicated matter, I believe... Chances are it's somehow related to APTX / Vermouth not aging anyway.

Also, for all we know, "this Bourbon arc" could very well keep running for years, not ruling out the possiblity of it being the last - it just depends on what you'd refer to as "Bourbon arc", hehe. =D
Also, we don't know whether Gosho would really need 4 years if he actually WANTED to wrap it up. No doubt it's taking ages if he's not really working towards the ending...

And people will barely ever be able to do anything else than speculate about the ending... At some point someone is bound to be right though.=P
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Kudo Shinchi »

@Saorin Actually I think that there IS a lot to be wrapped up. Pretty much the following:

1) BO's true purpose
2) Vermouth's non aging (and other things)
3) Anokata
4) Itakura's CD program
5) The people following the DB and Yukiko
6) Bourbon's hatred of Akai (and other things related to him, like his promise to Vermouth.)
7) Akemi's mysterious PS to Akai
8) Gin and Sherry's relationship
9) Shinichi/Ran, Heiji/Kazuha, Chiba/Naeko, Sato/Takagi (wedding) etc.
10) Akai's foreshadowed meeting with Haibara
11) The meeting between Sera and Haibara Gosho mentioned
12) Sera's connection to Conan
13) The bloodied disk Haibara lied about losing at Haido City Hotel
14) How Akai faked his death
15) What Haibara was looking for around Okiya's neck
16) Why Sera thinks she's a bad child


However, I DO think that these can be resolved within a 4-7 year time frame, especially since a bug chunk of what's listed above can easily be resolved in the Bourbon arc.

@ShadowGuy We may have not learned a lot about the BO over the course of the Bourbon arc, but a lot has happened. Besides, Gosho proved he can get a lot done in a short time. Amuro was introduced in Ch. 793, and the Mystery Train Express happened only around 20 chapters later. In that short period from Ch. 792 to Ch.824, we were introduced to Amuro, learned of a promise between Bourbon and Vermouth, had Sera see Scar Akai, had Haibara begin to suspect Okiya of being Morobushi Dai, learned of Amuro's connection to Date, learned of a promise between Okiya and a mysterious 'she', learned that there's something hidden on Okiya's neck, had Okiya find out Conan's identity, learned that Sera thinks she's a bad child, had Haibara return to Shiho in Gunma, had Bourbon see her, had the BO return, learned of what was on Elena's tapes, had Yukiko and Vermouth finally meet again, learned more about Itakura's CD program, had the identities of Amuro, Sera, Scar Akai, and Okiya revealed.

Yeah, that's a lot, in ONLY 30 chapters, which is almost a year I think. Four years or a bit more is more than enough time.

Also, I already gave my reasons for thinking that maybe this time it isn't just an 'illlusion' like other times; unprecedented things have occurred in the Bourbon arc, as stated in the first post of this topic.
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saorin
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by saorin »

Kudo Shinchi wrote: @Saorin Actually I think that there IS a lot to be wrapped up. Pretty much the following:

(list)


However, I DO think that these can be resolved within a 4-7 year time frame, especially since a bug chunk of what's listed above can easily be resolved in the Bourbon arc.

Which is what I was trying to say. I apologize if it was badly phrased, English is not my mother tongue after all. =)
In the end it boiled down to me believing that most of these things you listed don't need very convoluted anwers in the end, e.g. who was following them or what Akemit put in that PS. Plus, some things probably will get answered in the same context anyway.
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Nix
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Nix »

Kudo Shinchi wrote: 1) BO's true purpose
2) Vermouth's non aging (and other things)
3) Anokata
4) Itakura's CD program
5) The people following the DB and Yukiko
6) Bourbon's hatred of Akai (and other things related to him, like his promise to Vermouth.)
7) Akemi's mysterious PS to Akai
8) Gin and Sherry's relationship
9) Shinichi/Ran, Heiji/Kazuha, Chiba/Naeko, Sato/Takagi (wedding) etc.
10) Akai's foreshadowed meeting with Haibara
11) The meeting between Sera and Haibara Gosho mentioned
12) Sera's connection to Conan
13) The bloodied disk Haibara lied about losing at Haido City Hotel
14) How Akai faked his death
15) What Haibara was looking for around Okiya's neck
16) Why Sera thinks she's a bad child
17) Kogoro's family and background
18) Miyano family's background + Vermouth
19) Akai's family and background including Sera and their mum
20) Bourbon's relations with Date
21) BO's name, more about them
22) What James knows about Akai (since he knew Sera was a girl)
23) And of course, what Bourbon will do if he finds out about Conan
24) Perhaps extra pairings for loners, eg Yumi
25) How Vermouth knows Sera's name and if BO does too
26) More on individual BO member's past and relations
  And some irrelevant ones:
27) How Vermouth knew Haibara's number
28) Megure and Vodka's hat *flees*

Add to the list, people.
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Pmofmalasia »

Nothing to add, but #27 is a pretty good question.
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Nix
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by Nix »

Nix wrote:
Kudo Shinchi wrote: 1) BO's true purpose
2) Vermouth's non aging (and other things)
3) Anokata
4) Itakura's CD program
5) The people following the DB and Yukiko
6) Bourbon's hatred of Akai (and other things related to him, like his promise to Vermouth.)
7) Akemi's mysterious PS to Akai
8) Gin and Sherry's relationship
9) Shinichi/Ran, Heiji/Kazuha, Chiba/Naeko, Sato/Takagi (wedding) etc.
10) Akai's foreshadowed meeting with Haibara
11) The meeting between Sera and Haibara Gosho mentioned
12) Sera's connection to Conan
13) The bloodied disk Haibara lied about losing at Haido City Hotel
14) How Akai faked his death
15) What Haibara was looking for around Okiya's neck
16) Why Sera thinks she's a bad child
17) Kogoro's family and background
18) Miyano family's background + Vermouth
19) Akai's family and background including Sera and their mum
20) Bourbon's relations with Date
21) BO's name, more about them
22) What James knows about Akai (since he knew Sera was a girl)
23) And of course, what Bourbon will do if he finds out about Conan
24) Perhaps extra pairings for loners, eg Yumi
25) How Vermouth knows Sera's name and if BO does too
26) More on individual BO member's past and relations
  And some irrelevant ones:
27) How Vermouth knew Haibara's number
28) Megure and Vodka's hat *flees*
29) The info Jodie's father collected on Vermouth (side note, does Jodie ever mention her mother?)
30) Gin and Akai
31) More about Agasa's family and past
32) More about Fusae and Billy + the mysterious third meal in their car
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saorin
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Re: Why the Bourbon arc could be the penultimate arc

Post by saorin »

Agreed on most of the points, Nix, but some are just... gimmicks. I don't really NEED to know about Kogoro's or Agasa's background or more romantic pairings... Oo
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But be the serpent under it.
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