Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 23rd, 2018, 1:26 am

Kor wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Mind elaborating/specifying, here? Sorry I’m missing your point.


I'll try to be clearer. If you believe that when Gosho says that Rum's named appeared "in a sense*" he's referring to the fact that Katsumata didn't have a name box, then do you also believe that Gosho thinks that Megure's and Yukiko's and Mary's and whoever also appeared in the series "in a sense"? If yes, then... cool. If not, then it means you're using this sort of argument only for this specific situation in which it fits with the idea you're trying to pursue.


*Also I feel the need to mention that we don't know 100% what Gosho actually said in the Let's Talk day because we get the answers/questions from a source that was there. I'm not saying that we shouldn't rely on those because I have no reason to believe said source contributed falsehoods, but since this argument relies on some very specific wording, we might not be fully aware what was Gosho's wording specifically.


Oh. Yes, it would apply to Megure, Yukiko and Mary, as well as Chikara.

Yes, this particular argument certainly should not be a basis of Chikara = Rum theories. Especially if it comes out that said specific wording was actually not what Gosho said.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 23rd, 2018, 10:14 am

BTW regarding a different stuff, I've a hunch.
Say Haneda Kohji was supposedly killed by APTX and his name is still there in that list.
Now Gosho in 2016 had stated that there's a red herring in Volume 18 and it would have been invoked pretty soon.
In 2016 that Kohji stuff came out. Now if Gosho was telling the truth I can see two ways of this red Herring.

a)Kohji was not killed by APTX at all. In current timeline a person pursuing Kohji case was lured out by BO and got APTXed. That person was either a John or a Jane-do. So BO put it down as Haneda Kohji without knowing anything about the victim's name.(Mary??)

b)The person who got APTXed 17 years ago, in the room of Juke Hotel was a fake Kohji. As it was in USA, nobody did the double check. Also the idea is like, an NPA Officer switched his place with Haneda Kohji but got attacked by RUM and got killed. The real Kohji was in a fix(as he has been declared dead and coming to the US authorities with a clean breast of thing would have become a Nightmare scenario for both Kohji and Japanese secret service.) So as a counter measure Kohji came back using the NPA officer's identity.
Now if the second case is really the the case, then Kohji is Kuroda. As Kuroda has the similar cheekbone like Kohji and similar eyebrows and both Kuroda and Kohji have slanty eye. This thing which fuels this further is Gosho's own admission, that "Somebody will pop up and you will be like what is this after knowing the name......." or something like that. As of now Kuroda is implied to be not the real one, neither a BO. So Kuroda being Kohji will surely put people in Coma.
Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on October 23rd, 2018, 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » October 23rd, 2018, 10:17 am

"ow if the second case is really the the case, then Kohji is Kuroda. As Kuroda has the similar cheekbone like Kohji and similar eyebrows and both Kuroda and Kohji have slanty eye. This thing which fuels this further is Gosho's own admission, that "Somebody will pop up and you will be like what is this......." or something like that. As of now Kuroda is implied to be not the real one, neither a BO. So Kuroda being Kohji will surely put people in Coma."

Aahahaha... that is the boldest and most hilarious assumption I've heard yet... that Kohji is Kuroda... ahahaha... ;D
You might as well have made the assumption that Kohji never died and is actually RUM who murdered Amanda and the dead body of "Kohji" that was left at the scene was just a fake decoy. :-\
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 23rd, 2018, 11:01 am

blackmoon wrote:"ow if the second case is really the the case, then Kohji is Kuroda. As Kuroda has the similar cheekbone like Kohji and similar eyebrows and both Kuroda and Kohji have slanty eye. This thing which fuels this further is Gosho's own admission, that "Somebody will pop up and you will be like what is this......." or something like that. As of now Kuroda is implied to be not the real one, neither a BO. So Kuroda being Kohji will surely put people in Coma."

Aahahaha... that is the boldest and most hilarious assumption I've heard yet... that Kohji is Kuroda... ahahaha... ;D
You might as well have made the assumption that Kohji never died and is actually RUM who murdered Amanda and the dead body of "Kohji" that was left at the scene was just a fake decoy. :-\


Can you tell me, why this is hilarious/can't happen given Gosho's hint's interpretation?
Also aren't you the one who thought that Kohji has a shogi shaped pillcase and APTX was inside of it??
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Iwamoto Yuri » October 23rd, 2018, 11:09 am

then Kohji is Kuroda

Because this is utterly ridiculous.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 23rd, 2018, 11:17 am

Iwamoto Yuri wrote:
then Kohji is Kuroda

Because this is utterly ridiculous.


Can you deny that given Gosho's hint's interpretation that Haneda Kohji's name could be a fake, then arriving at this conclusion from that is just plain logical. If the Fake Kohji died then real Kohji is still at large and using another identity.
I don't get the idea that how could it be ridiculous when it is derived in a rational way. Or it is your bias??
If you had said unlikely I would have agreed, when you say ridiculous, I think you're being biased.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Iwamoto Yuri » October 23rd, 2018, 12:02 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Can you deny that given Gosho's hint's interpretation that Haneda Kohji's name could be a fake, then arriving at this conclusion from that is just plain logical.
For one, that sentence made zero sense. As to the bolded part, nothing about your conclusion is logical. Jawbones like that have been used for almost every adult in the series and their eyebrows do not match at all. Not to mention their facial structures are not alike either. Even if Kuroda was Kohji there'd be no way he could get through border control unless he got a false passport.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:If the Fake Kohji died then real Kohji is still at large and using another identity.
True, but then there'd have to be proof he's not actually dead. A red herring is not conclusive evidence nor is quoting Gosho without giving an idea of what this so called red herring was to begin with. You're grasping at straws here man.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I don't get the idea that how could it be ridiculous when it is derived in a rational way. Or it is your bias??
If you had said unlikely I would have agreed, when you say ridiculous, I think you're being biased.
There's nothing rational about your conclusion. It's your personal bias leading you there. (insert crine emoji)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 23rd, 2018, 12:28 pm

Iwamoto Yuri wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Can you deny that given Gosho's hint's interpretation that Haneda Kohji's name could be a fake, then arriving at this conclusion from that is just plain logical.
For one, that sentence made zero sense. As to the bolded part, nothing about your conclusion is logical. Jawbones like that have been used for almost every adult in the series and their eyebrows do not match at all. Not to mention their facial structures are not alike either. Even if Kuroda was Kohji there'd be no way he could get through border control unless he got a false passport.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:If the Fake Kohji died then real Kohji is still at large and using another identity.
True, but then there'd have to be proof he's not actually dead. A red herring is not conclusive evidence nor is quoting Gosho without giving an idea of what this so called red herring was to begin with. You're grasping at straws here man.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I don't get the idea that how could it be ridiculous when it is derived in a rational way. Or it is your bias??
If you had said unlikely I would have agreed, when you say ridiculous, I think you're being biased.
There's nothing rational about your conclusion. It's your personal bias leading you there. (insert crine emoji)


This happens when you don't read things in context. Context here was if the name of Kohji on that APTX list is red herring then what could be the implications?
Now when i said if the second interpretation(the one who got killed in Juke hotel was not Kohji) was correct then what could be the follow up consequences. Now face can be fixed by plastic surgery, eyebrows are downwards and thick(technically the same type), Araide, Shukichi, Shuuichi are all adults yet lack that prominent jaw bone(rather upper jaw none that protrudes around the ear.)

No, I'm not gasping at straws, all I'm saying if the red herring is Haneda Kohji was not being killed but a fake one got killed. Well why don't you come up with something else?
The red herring can only be APTX list(which got referred to in 2016 and was also present in volume 18).

It is very rational to include this hint in theories, but guess what you might think it is irrational to explore plot in it's entirety.
Your personal bias is that "What you think is true can't be challenged." Good luck with that.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Iwamoto Yuri » October 23rd, 2018, 1:28 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now face can be fixed by plastic surgery, eyebrows are downwards and thick(technically the same type)
But even if he's an NPA officer that wouldn't be noticed right? Because none of his colleagues would have picked up on his voice and mannerisms being different, nope sirree. Very unlikely anyone would pick up on that if his job was that important :).
Also, if he had plastic surgery using eyebrows as a link is dumb.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:clearly Araide, Shukichi, Shuuichi are all adults yet lack that prominent jaw bone(rather upper jaw none that protrudes around the ear.)
Akai has it, Araide isn't old enough yet. (Not all younger versions of Yusaku have it either, it's seemingly a way Gosho ages up his characters).

Zerozaki4869 wrote:No, I'm not gasping at straws, all I'm saying if the red herring is Haneda Kohji was not being killed but a fake one got killed. Well why don't you come up with something else?
I think you misunderstand what red herring means. Also, that's a rather easy way to deflect things, wouldn't you say?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The red herring can only be APTX list (which got referred to in 2016 and was also present in volume 18).
Very possible, but if it's a red herring then it should be of no actual importance no? That's what a red herring is.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:It is very rational to include this hint in theories, but guess what you might think it is irrational to explore plot in it's entirety.
Red herring=/=hint.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Your personal bias is that "What you think is true can't be challenged." Good luck with that.
My only bias is that you think Gosho is much better at this mystery thing than I believe he, in actuality, is. You can challenge my believes all you want, I can take that.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 24th, 2018, 2:35 am

Iwamoto Yuri wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now face can be fixed by plastic surgery, eyebrows are downwards and thick(technically the same type)
But even if he's an NPA officer that wouldn't be noticed right? Because none of his colleagues would have picked up on his voice and mannerisms being different, nope sirree. Very unlikely anyone would pick up on that if his job was that important :).
Also, if he had plastic surgery using eyebrows as a link is dumb.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:clearly Araide, Shukichi, Shuuichi are all adults yet lack that prominent jaw bone(rather upper jaw none that protrudes around the ear.)
Akai has it, Araide isn't old enough yet. (Not all younger versions of Yusaku have it either, it's seemingly a way Gosho ages up his characters).

Zerozaki4869 wrote:No, I'm not gasping at straws, all I'm saying if the red herring is Haneda Kohji was not being killed but a fake one got killed. Well why don't you come up with something else?
I think you misunderstand what red herring means. Also, that's a rather easy way to deflect things, wouldn't you say?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The red herring can only be APTX list (which got referred to in 2016 and was also present in volume 18).
Very possible, but if it's a red herring then it should be of no actual importance no? That's what a red herring is.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:It is very rational to include this hint in theories, but guess what you might think it is irrational to explore plot in it's entirety.
Red herring=/=hint.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Your personal bias is that "What you think is true can't be challenged." Good luck with that.
My only bias is that you think Gosho is much better at this mystery thing than I believe he, in actuality, is. You can challenge my believes all you want, I can take that.


For your first point. In NPA's own interest they would help Kohji in his stint as the NPA officer. If NPA was involved so much that they swapped their officer with Kohji to round up the possible assailant targetting Amanda, they woud know for sure that Kohji Haneda can't be revived for their own reasons. So NPA just helped Kohji to settle down.

You know what is dumber, the thinking that eyebrows can be changed after plastic surgery. Eyebrows are genetic. You can't make a major change in it. You can't shorten it, lengthen it. Even if you do Eyebrow implant, the implants look out of place and requires grooming.At max you can lift it using Botox, you can't change the nature of it.
Kuroda and Kohji's eyebrows are of similar type(thick, flared and slanty).

Akai's are not prominent enough.
Also the point stands that it doesn't hinder Kohji in any way to be someone like Kuroda.

Again a half baked assertion. Gosho's hint was the "Red Herring." Using that hint to identify and then construct complying theories is what a Theorist should do.(Probably it is not a job for the passing casual reader.)

You can't take it. I've asked you to give me an alternate interpretation off that Red herring., other than my two explanations.
[a) Kohji was not killed by APTX. Later an unidentified Human nosing around about the case got APTXed by BO. As BO had nothing to go about her identity they filded that person as Haneda Kohji.
b) Haneda Kohji was never killed at all. Somebody else got APTXed 17 years ago while cosplaying Kohji.]
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » October 24th, 2018, 7:03 am

I doubt about that [A] theory, I think the BO would state that the identity of that person is unknown. The only possible way for filding that unknown person as Haneda is that the killer intentionally lied (for example he didn't want to let his bosses know that in reality he doesn't know who he killed, and therefore he provided a random name). But would a BO killer ever do that? After all it's not that they can't kill random people.

I have another explanation for this, but it's even bolder than yours. Rum in reality is a yet another spy, and the whole murder was just a stage. They (FBI, CIA, NPA &c.) used it to put a rat as close to Anokata as they could. But why would Rum be inside the BO for over 17 years? Because the BO is working on something, and Rum real bosses want that thing. They just didn't think it will take this long to develop it.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » October 24th, 2018, 7:22 am

So... in reality not Wakita but Rum would be the king of rats?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » October 24th, 2018, 7:40 am

The BO works on something really wonderful. Vermouth is probably a living example that it's not a fake, but a real thing. It would be only natural to trying to steal that instead of destroying it. Maybe that's one of the reasons why nobody yet took down the BO. Because the thing they work on is more important than the crimes the BO committed so far. Plus, Rum doesn't have to work in a law agency, they as well might work in another crime syndicate.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby shinichi1977 » October 26th, 2018, 7:47 pm

Hi all,

Sorry, I couldn't reply sooner, got busy in real life. I've watched two videos yesterday, from the same Youtuber, one has so-so confirmed my lingering suspicion that Kuroda is Akai Tsutomu in disguise and the other refuted Kanenori would be Rum. This continues to be abductive logic as we don't have all facts, but I kind of disagree with Time is money being an easy hint.

This is because, after Kudo having been "announced" to be alive, the question isn't anymore who Rum is, rather how will Kudo prevent Rum from informing the boss about it. This leaves me with two options: a Raiha Pass like self-sacrifice on Amuro's part, or... Kanenori being Rum isn't an entirely correct answer.

I started to play with the thought, that the Japanese fans are on the right track and Kuroda was present, but not because "Kuroda" now is Tsutomu. I posit the idea that both Wakasa and the original Kuroda, just like Kanenori have been members of the organization. Unless Wakasa Rumi is magically Elena who somehow survived and thus would explain how she has a copy of APTX victims, given that Gosho has established that only organization members can access it, the other option is that she's been a member. Her hatred toward Kuroda could very well be based on something happening or not happening.

If it were up to me, the reason why the descriptions are a mismatch is that it's not RUM but R U M, meaning the second in command is actually a trio. Or could've been one before Kuroda was "decommissioned". Then again, it's just an overthought idea from the same brain that would reverse the poison's effect by having Mary loop in and loop out of her original form and choosing to be a kid to avoid being targeted.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » October 27th, 2018, 1:56 am

From what I remember, Gosho already denied the possibility of Rum being more than one person.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.

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