Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 20th, 2018, 11:30 pm

The biggest stuff about the hint(let's talk day hint) is the phrase "In a sense."
Whenever this in a sense is used, there are at least two interpretations of a given statement.
So In a sense name has not appeared means in another sense the name has appeared.
Now in DC, the so called suspect box is used as a tool of introducing relevant characters who are not the suspects in a given case.
Ooka Momiji wasn't a suspect of Nue-case, yet she got this box of introduction.
So, Rum's fake/social name hasn't been introduced formally.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » October 21st, 2018, 2:19 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:While Chikara being Rum would follow the Vermouth arc pattern, Muga being Rum would fit the Bourbon arc pattern. The former features immediate introduction of the member’s true identity, while the latter features much later introduction.
And from a different viewpoint, both options would follow the Vermouth arc pattern, where the antagonist (who is not a rat) is treated as unrelated in the narrative and given a strong mislead ("American teacher Jodie", as the mislead for Vermouth, and the "3 Bourbon-arc-theme-lookalike Rum suspects", as the mislead for Rum), to build up to a twist.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 21st, 2018, 3:14 am

Regarding Rum suspects, they have to be male first.
So Wakita, Iori and Kuroda are three Rum suspects, Rumi is an obvious diversion.
If the glasses containing vinegar with skull themed coasters are to be treated as such, then Kuroda, wakita and Iori are the three glasses with coasters.
Because it has to be a glass(man) getting covered by some suspicious/unexplained behaviour(skull coasters).
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 21st, 2018, 4:06 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The biggest stuff about the hint(let's talk day hint) is the phrase "In a sense."
Whenever this in a sense is used, there are at least two interpretations of a given statement.
So In a sense name has not appeared means in another sense the name has appeared.
Now in DC, the so called suspect box is used as a tool of introducing relevant characters who are not the suspects in a given case.
Ooka Momiji wasn't a suspect of Nue-case, yet she got this box of introduction.
So, Rum's fake/social name hasn't been introduced formally.


If we go by BO members who are titular characters of arcs and who are still in the BO (this excludes Shiho/Ai/Sherry), we have Vermouth, Kir and Bourbon, all of whom had name boxes to go with their introductions. Vermouth is not 29, and while her surname has a higher chance of being real than either of her given names, Vineyard could very well be fake; Kir is 27, but Rena Mizunashi is not her real name; Bourbon is 29, but Tōru Amuro is not his real name. So it’s looking pretty likely that Rum will have a fake name, as well.

MeiTanteixX wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:While Chikara being Rum would follow the Vermouth arc pattern, Muga being Rum would fit the Bourbon arc pattern. The former features immediate introduction of the member’s true identity, while the latter features much later introduction.
And from a different viewpoint, both options would follow the Vermouth arc pattern, where the antagonist (who is not a rat) is treated as unrelated in the narrative and given a strong mislead ("American teacher Jodie", as the mislead for Vermouth, and the "3 Bourbon-arc-theme-lookalike Rum suspects", as the mislead for Rum), to build up to a twist.


Yeah, the striking parallels between Subaru, Masumi and Tōru & Hyōe, Rumi and Kanenori, as well as the presence of suspects beyond the obvious ones tells me that a twist is coming—I’m very confident that either Chikara or Muga is Rum, and that neither Hyōe, Rumi nor Kanenori is Rum.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Regarding Rum suspects, they have to be male first.
So Wakita, Iori and Kuroda are three Rum suspects, Rumi is an obvious diversion.
If the glasses containing vinegar with skull themed coasters are to be treated as such, then Kuroda, wakita and Iori are the three glasses with coasters.
Because it has to be a glass(man) getting covered by some suspicious/unexplained behaviour(skull coasters).


And Chikara is the only one who’s not really involved with the main cast of characters—we haven’t seen him with anyone but Shūkichi (son of Tsutomu Akai and non-blood brother of Kōji Haneda). To me, that makes him a parallel with the non-skull coaster (which actually did have vinegar in it, but Agasa lied and said that there wasn’t… translation: there’s actually a fourth Rum suspect, but Gosho sure as heck isn’t saying that in interviews), and, thus, puts him, rather than Muga, at the top of my Rum suspect list.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » October 21st, 2018, 4:22 am

Eh... about the the name boxes, neither Mary nor Tsutomu got those boxes, so I'm not sure what the lack of boxes (for anyone) really proves.
I also don't see Yukiko and Yusaku got boxes on their first case either. (Did Megure ever get a box?)

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Yeah, the striking parallels between Subaru, Masumi and Tōru & Hyōe, Rumi and Kanenori, as well as the presence of suspects beyond the obvious ones tells me that a twist is coming


What's the twist, though? While Araide was indeed seemingly unrelated, he was still around, he met Conan and Haibara and Ran and Jodie, etc. With Katsumata, the only one he's met is Shuukichi. Is it really such a strong twist if a literal nobody turns out to be Rum?

and that neither Hyōe, Rumi nor Kanenori is Rum.


So what are their roles, then?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » October 21st, 2018, 12:30 pm

They dont "prove" anything, but theyre a possible explanation for what Gosho meant by "in a sense".
We dont get much other options beside...

1) Fake name appeared but not the real one
2) Real name appeared but not introed by the standard box

If anyone has any other idea, feel free to share.

Their roles: distractions / red herrings.
Specific they may be for example:
Kuroda = Tsutomu
Rumi = Asaka
Wakita = BO but not Rum

Even now currently about 70%+ voted for Rum being one of those three.
So atleast a big majority will be "surprised" if Rum doesnt turn out to be one of the promoted three suspects.
Depends on ones taste if that may be considered as a "strong" twist.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
alphajjc
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby alphajjc » October 21st, 2018, 6:45 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Sorry, I disagree. Even if he was joking, there’s a chance he wasn’t just/only joking with that AC hint. And if there was any element of “hey, fans, here’s a legit hint from me,” then basically everyone but Chikara gets turfed out of the field of Rum suspects.
I want to believe that Gosho wouldn't reveal something this central in an arc this early before any plot groundwork has even properly started, especially in that straightforward fashion. Imo, Rum is not comparable to the other things(like mother sisterhood) he has teased too early, and considering the strict limitations on Rum arc/Boss questions on most Q&A:s, I doubt he would reveal central things of the ongoing plot in AC:s before said plot even kicks off properly. But again... That's just my take on it. :-\


Who knows? He could’ve been using a joke as cover to drop a legit hint, in quite trollish fashion.

Eh, if it turns out it was a joke and nothing but a joke, then oh, well, I guess I lose my cherry on top.

Muga’s still my second choice, either way. We’ll have to wait and see if there’s more to this dying message, or if there was manipulation of it by parties beyond the victims and Rum. As of now, your dying message theory could very well turn out to be true… and it will gain further credibility with me if Rumi does have a knight chess piece. For all I know, all the stuff about Chikara could be unintentional/coincidental on Gosho’s part, and he really did use Momiji and Movie 21 to try to slip Rum in under everyone’s noses.

While Chikara being Rum would follow the Vermouth arc pattern (Tomoaki Ariade introduced: File 234–File 237/Episode 170–Episode 171 / Vermouth introduced: File 238–File 242; Rum introduced: File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783 / Chikara Katsumata introduced: File 899–File 902/Episode 785–Episode 786), Muga being Rum would fit the Bourbon arc pattern (Bourbon introduced: File 622–File 624/Episode 509–Episode 510 / Tōru Amuro introduced: File 793–File 795/Episode 667–Episode 668; Rum introduced: File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783 / Muga Iori introduced: File 981–File 983/Episode 885–Episode 886). The former features immediate introduction of the member’s true identity (just as Tomoaki’s intro was immediately followed up by the intro of the one who would impersonate him, Rum would appear immediately after first being mentioned), while the latter features much later introduction (in this case, as opposed to the ~170 Files it took for Bourbon to show up as himself in his arc, it took ~80 Files for Rum to show up as himself in his arc). Also, the former case has the first suspect introduced be the one (Tomoaki appeared ~25 Files before Jodie; Chikara appeared ~15 Files before Hyōe, ~70 Files before Rumi, ~75 Files before Kanenori, and ~80 Files before Muga), while the latter case has the last suspect to be introduced be the one (Rei/Tōru appeared ~170 Files after Shūichi/Subaru and ~25 Files after Masumi; Muga appeared ~80 Files after Chikara, ~65 Files after Hyōe, ~15 Files after Rumi and 6 after Kanenori).


In say 3 to 5 years after we finally get to the Boss Arc(or maybe i'm being pessimist and it will happen sooner), do you think that Gosho will continue the same immediate introduction pattern? Like a hint right from the start on who the current boss is?

Also if the Boss is based on Moriarty then the second in command Rum would be based on Sebastian Moran. He was also known as a "devoted sportsman" and i could see Chikara being a master shogi player being a play on that.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 21st, 2018, 8:05 pm

Kor wrote:Eh... about the the name boxes, neither Mary nor Tsutomu got those boxes, so I'm not sure what the lack of boxes (for anyone) really proves.
I also don't see Yukiko and Yusaku got boxes on their first case either. (Did Megure ever get a box?)


In the context of the Rum arc, and the Rum suspects—not DC, overall—that’s my focus, here.

No, Megure didn’t—neither did Kōgorō, Yōko Okino, Heiji, Takagi, Miwako, Ninzaburo, or James Black. The suspect box got more prevalent as the series went on.

Kor wrote:What's the twist, though? While Araide was indeed seemingly unrelated, he was still around, he met Conan and Haibara and Ran and Jodie, etc. With Katsumata, the only one he's met is Shuukichi. Is it really such a strong twist if a literal nobody turns out to be Rum?


You’ll have no objections from me in calling Gosho out on that if, by the time Chikara is revealed to be Rum, he still hasn’t encountered the rest of the main cast—and this would be by the standards of, if a suspect doesn’t interact with at least some of the main cast (more than one person) at least somewhat regularly, that suspect should be designated a “literal nobody,” and if the twist revolves around them, it must thusly be called a weak twist. By those standards, I’d have no qualms with you criticizing Gosho.

Though I will say, again, that since he’s a Shogi player going up against the son of Tsutomu Akai and the non-blood brother of Kōji Haneda, that gives Chikara a stronger tie to the important old cold case of the arc than most, even if that connection is indirect. The twist would be that this unassuming shogi player who has been going up against Shūkichi this entire arc is actually the BO’s #2—it would certainly give Shūkichi a chance to partake in the main plot, and give him a chance to be the one to avenge both his father and his inspiration. Out of all the Akais, Shūkichi is the least expected to actually take on Rum.

If he Chikara is Rum, then yes, we do need more of him.

Kor wrote:So what are their roles, then?


Hyōe’s the boss of the Zero organization that oversees Japan’s Security Bureaus, and had some involvement in the Kōji case (if he isn’t the real Hyōe, then my bet is on Tsutomu or someone from Rumi’s past—someone who would still be connected to the Kōji case); Rumi and Kanenori are probably BO-aligned, but have agendas of their own (more specifically, they have a bone to pick with Rum—and that’s even if Rum is the one currently giving them orders); Rumi is likely someone with a personal connection to Kōji (or, alternatively, the Miyanos, as zerozaki suggested—it could even be a connection to both Kōji and the Miyanos); if Kanenori is not Tsutomu, then he is a BO member who’s relationship with Rum would be akin to that of Chianti and Vermouth.

We do need more of Kanenori, though, if we’re to get a better read—he has only 1 non-cameo appearance, so far, nearly 50 Files after his introduction.

Questions for you:
a) In your opinion, what is the least-worst case scenario for Rum’s identity?
b) In your opinion, what is the highest quality twist DC has had to offer?
Last edited by DCUniverseAficionado on October 22nd, 2018, 6:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » October 21st, 2018, 10:18 pm

Random word from me, recently a completely unrelated to the main plot character - Koumei - became a part of anti-BO team. I bet a year ago no one suspected that he will aid Conan in his quest. If anybody from Nagano, it probably would be Kansuke, and not Koumei. But as it turned out, it wasn't him.

Therefore chances for Shuukichi to become important to the main plot are pretty high too. And the only way for him to become important is through Chikara. Like how Koumei became important through Scotch. If Chikara isn't Rum, I hope he's connected to the BO in anothet way.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 22nd, 2018, 1:00 am

dccd wrote:They dont "prove" anything, but theyre a possible explanation for what Gosho meant by "in a sense".
We dont get much other options beside...

1) Fake name appeared but not the real one
2) Real name appeared but not introed by the standard box

If anyone has any other idea, feel free to share.

Their roles: distractions / red herrings.
Specific they may be for example:
Kuroda = Tsutomu
Rumi = Asaka
Wakita = BO but not Rum

Even now currently about 70%+ voted for Rum being one of those three.
So atleast a big majority will be "surprised" if Rum doesnt turn out to be one of the promoted three suspects.
Depends on ones taste if that may be considered as a "strong" twist.


Nothing to add.

Just a sidenote,
Kuroda= Non-BO+Fake+Related to Kohji case+Rum-suspect
Rumi= BO+Woman as strong as a Man+Grey character+Related to Kohji case+Framed Asaka suspect.
Wakita= Total fake+Possible-BO+showing cognizance of Rumi's antics+Rum-suspect.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 22nd, 2018, 6:13 am

Nemomon wrote:Random word from me, recently a completely unrelated to the main plot character - Koumei - became a part of anti-BO team. I bet a year ago no one suspected that he will aid Conan in his quest. If anybody from Nagano, it probably would be Kansuke, and not Koumei. But as it turned out, it wasn't him.

Therefore chances for Shuukichi to become important to the main plot are pretty high too. And the only way for him to become important is through Chikara. Like how Koumei became important through Scotch. If Chikara isn't Rum, I hope he's connected to the BO in anothet way.


I mean, I hoped he and Kansuke, as intelligent police characters, would become part of the anti-BO group, regardless of who they happened to be related to, but, now, Taka’aki/Kōmei has a personal stake in this fight.

Or Gosho could simply put him in cases with his family and have him interact with Shinichi/Conan about things Shūichi does (the opportunity is there—he knows Shūichi is alive). Chikara being Rum is the path to have Shūkichi become super important, certainly, but you don’t need that to involve Shūkichi in the main plot—just have him appear more, and involve him with Shinichi’s/Conan’s or Mary’s efforts to make moves against the BO. And through Shūkichi’s increased appearances and larger involvement in the plot, Gosho could have Chikara encounter the main cast.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » October 22nd, 2018, 6:45 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Nemomon wrote:Random word from me, recently a completely unrelated to the main plot character - Koumei - became a part of anti-BO team. I bet a year ago no one suspected that he will aid Conan in his quest. If anybody from Nagano, it probably would be Kansuke, and not Koumei. But as it turned out, it wasn't him.

Therefore chances for Shuukichi to become important to the main plot are pretty high too. And the only way for him to become important is through Chikara. Like how Koumei became important through Scotch. If Chikara isn't Rum, I hope he's connected to the BO in anothet way.


I mean, I hoped he and Kansuke, as intelligent police characters, would become part of the anti-BO group, regardless of who they happened to be related to, but, now, Taka’aki/Kōmei has a personal stake in this fight.

Or Gosho could simply put him in cases with his family and have him interact with Shinichi/Conan about things Shūichi does (the opportunity is there—he knows Shūichi is alive). Chikara being Rum is the path to have Shūkichi become super important, certainly, but you don’t need that to involve Shūkichi in the main plot—just have him appear more, and involve him with Shinichi’s/Conan’s or Mary’s efforts to make moves against the BO. And through Shūkichi’s increased appearances and larger involvement in the plot, Gosho could have Chikara encounter the main cast.


Personally I also hoped and still hope for both Koumei and Kansuke, but until now it was Kansuke who was (manga wise) the star of Nagano police while Koumei usually played the role of the second guy. Therefore I think for readers would be much more obvious to use the main Nagano police than the second one. Although I'm happy anyway, because I like Koumei much more than Kansuke. Though, maybe Koumei was chosen because he trusts Conan more? I must admit I don't remember who between them is more willing to trust Conan words, though maybe with the exception of Takagi among all of the police officers they both trust his words the most.

For now Shuukichi is unrelated to the plot as much as he can be. His only connection to the main plot is that he's a part of the Akai family. But seems he doesn't know the BO nor he cares about it and his brothers. Unless Gosho will perform a yet another deus ex machina trick (like he did with Koumei), him showing up more often won't change much unless Chikara will show up with him and reveal that he's Rum and/or that he knows Kouji (after all they both - Kouji and Shuukichi - share the same surname). This way Shuukich will at the very least have a reson to abandon his daily life and join the team.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » October 22nd, 2018, 7:36 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:In the context of the Rum arc, and the Rum suspects—not DC, overall—that’s my focus, here.


So you're basically making up rules (or advocate for them) only for this specific circumstance where said made-up rule somehow fits your agenda.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 22nd, 2018, 12:14 pm

Kor wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:In the context of the Rum arc, and the Rum suspects—not DC, overall—that’s my focus, here.


So you're basically making up rules (or advocate for them) only for this specific circumstance where said made-up rule somehow fits your agenda.


Mind elaborating/specifying, here? Sorry I’m missing your point.

But if you’re basically saying, “you gotta make a better argument than that,” then yes, you’re probably correct.

Nemomon wrote:But seems he doesn't know the BO nor he cares about it and his brothers.


If that really is the case, then I suspect that Mary and Shūichi wanted that to be the case, or didn’t mind that being the case—they don’t seem to have any objections to him being uninvolved in their situation.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » October 22nd, 2018, 8:31 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Mind elaborating/specifying, here? Sorry I’m missing your point.


I'll try to be clearer. If you believe that when Gosho says that Rum's named appeared "in a sense*" he's referring to the fact that Katsumata didn't have a name box, then do you also believe that Gosho thinks that Megure's and Yukiko's and Mary's and whoever also appeared in the series "in a sense"? If yes, then... cool. If not, then it means you're using this sort of argument only for this specific situation in which it fits with the idea you're trying to pursue.


*Also I feel the need to mention that we don't know 100% what Gosho actually said in the Let's Talk day because we get the answers/questions from a source that was there. I'm not saying that we shouldn't rely on those because I have no reason to believe said source contributed falsehoods, but since this argument relies on some very specific wording, we might not be fully aware what was Gosho's wording specifically.
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