Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
jimmy_kud0_tv2
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » May 19th, 2017, 11:06 pm

Spoiler:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
andrasb wrote:Hi everybody!

My name is andrasb, and that's my first post in DCTP Forum. I am very happy, that there is a place, where can I read opions, theories regarding DC. I'd like to share one, which can be read in the spoiler box (I put it for safety).

I have recently developed a theory about Koji's death, particularly about his dying message. I have read some infos about chess, which can be found for example on the WP. First, perhaps you have heard, that there are some abbreviation for the chess figures, like for Pawn "P", King "K" or Knight "N". Then I went deeper in this topic, and I found, that a pawn should be promoted to queen, knight, rook, or bishop, if it reaches the eigth rank (=row). Of course, it's a free choice of the player. You can expect, that the chess players choose the queen.
What if the dying message was "simply" PTON = P TO N = Pawn promoted TO Knight? That's a chess move at the first glance, but it could be a coded message for a special someone, who can resolve it...

I know, that's rather a speculation at that moment, because of the ASACA RUM solution. But for me that's a really big luck, that names of two people can be puzzled from the mirror subscription.

What's your thought about this theory/speculation?

Welcome! Nice to have u here.

I like your line of thought. If Kohji wasn't that good in english, I wouldn't be surprised if he misspelled "Knight" and left behind "P T O N" instead of "P T O K". However, considering that he was well familiar with chess and was playing in the US, it's a bit unlikely that he wasn't familiar with the "Knight's spelling".

What would "Pawn TO kNight" entail anyway? :)


It wouldn't be a misspelling, Knight is abbreviated as N because K is already taken by the King piece.

Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
It really saddens me to see people continuing to talk about this series as if its dying or that they are losing interest in it. This has been one of my favorite series' since I first heard of it in 2005 and I have never looked back. I really hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 20th, 2017, 12:00 am

Spoiler:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
andrasb wrote:Hi everybody!

My name is andrasb, and that's my first post in DCTP Forum. I am very happy, that there is a place, where can I read opions, theories regarding DC. I'd like to share one, which can be read in the spoiler box (I put it for safety).

I have recently developed a theory about Koji's death, particularly about his dying message. I have read some infos about chess, which can be found for example on the WP. First, perhaps you have heard, that there are some abbreviation for the chess figures, like for Pawn "P", King "K" or Knight "N". Then I went deeper in this topic, and I found, that a pawn should be promoted to queen, knight, rook, or bishop, if it reaches the eigth rank (=row). Of course, it's a free choice of the player. You can expect, that the chess players choose the queen.
What if the dying message was "simply" PTON = P TO N = Pawn promoted TO Knight? That's a chess move at the first glance, but it could be a coded message for a special someone, who can resolve it...

I know, that's rather a speculation at that moment, because of the ASACA RUM solution. But for me that's a really big luck, that names of two people can be puzzled from the mirror subscription.

What's your thought about this theory/speculation?

Welcome! Nice to have u here.

I like your line of thought. If Kohji wasn't that good in english, I wouldn't be surprised if he misspelled "Knight" and left behind "P T O N" instead of "P T O K". However, considering that he was well familiar with chess and was playing in the US, it's a bit unlikely that he wasn't familiar with the "Knight's spelling".

What would "Pawn TO kNight" entail anyway? :)


It wouldn't be a misspelling, Knight is abbreviated as N because K is already taken by the King piece.

Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


It may have led to Rum's ascension in the ranks... but it was such a high profile murder, one which fell short of the BO's ideal of a quiet accident/suicide that no one but a genius could see through.
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 20th, 2017, 12:33 am

Spoiler:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
andrasb wrote:Hi everybody!

My name is andrasb, and that's my first post in DCTP Forum. I am very happy, that there is a place, where can I read opions, theories regarding DC. I'd like to share one, which can be read in the spoiler box (I put it for safety).

I have recently developed a theory about Koji's death, particularly about his dying message. I have read some infos about chess, which can be found for example on the WP. First, perhaps you have heard, that there are some abbreviation for the chess figures, like for Pawn "P", King "K" or Knight "N". Then I went deeper in this topic, and I found, that a pawn should be promoted to queen, knight, rook, or bishop, if it reaches the eigth rank (=row). Of course, it's a free choice of the player. You can expect, that the chess players choose the queen.
What if the dying message was "simply" PTON = P TO N = Pawn promoted TO Knight? That's a chess move at the first glance, but it could be a coded message for a special someone, who can resolve it...

I know, that's rather a speculation at that moment, because of the ASACA RUM solution. But for me that's a really big luck, that names of two people can be puzzled from the mirror subscription.

What's your thought about this theory/speculation?

Welcome! Nice to have u here.

I like your line of thought. If Kohji wasn't that good in english, I wouldn't be surprised if he misspelled "Knight" and left behind "P T O N" instead of "P T O K". However, considering that he was well familiar with chess and was playing in the US, it's a bit unlikely that he wasn't familiar with the "Knight's spelling".

What would "Pawn TO kNight" entail anyway? :)


It wouldn't be a misspelling, Knight is abbreviated as N because K is already taken by the King piece.

Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


It may have led to Rum's ascension in the ranks... but it was such a high profile murder, one which fell short of the BO's ideal of a quiet accident/suicide that no one but a genius could see through.


Only one gripe with the review. How Kohji was able to foresee before dying that the Organization(we have no data to back-up whether Kojhi knew their presence.) was going to promote the killer in the ranks? Why would he put it into the dying message instead of the killer's identity?
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
k11chi
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby k11chi » May 20th, 2017, 1:26 am

Spoiler:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
andrasb wrote:Hi everybody!

My name is andrasb, and that's my first post in DCTP Forum. I am very happy, that there is a place, where can I read opions, theories regarding DC. I'd like to share one, which can be read in the spoiler box (I put it for safety).

I have recently developed a theory about Koji's death, particularly about his dying message. I have read some infos about chess, which can be found for example on the WP. First, perhaps you have heard, that there are some abbreviation for the chess figures, like for Pawn "P", King "K" or Knight "N". Then I went deeper in this topic, and I found, that a pawn should be promoted to queen, knight, rook, or bishop, if it reaches the eigth rank (=row). Of course, it's a free choice of the player. You can expect, that the chess players choose the queen.
What if the dying message was "simply" PTON = P TO N = Pawn promoted TO Knight? That's a chess move at the first glance, but it could be a coded message for a special someone, who can resolve it...

I know, that's rather a speculation at that moment, because of the ASACA RUM solution. But for me that's a really big luck, that names of two people can be puzzled from the mirror subscription.
What's your thought about this theory/speculation?

Welcome! Nice to have u here.

I like your line of thought. If Kohji wasn't that good in english, I wouldn't be surprised if he misspelled "Knight" and left behind "P T O N" instead of "P T O K". However, considering that he was well familiar with chess and was playing in the US, it's a bit unlikely that he wasn't familiar with the "Knight's spelling".

What would "Pawn TO kNight" entail anyway? :)


It wouldn't be a misspelling, Knight is abbreviated as N because K is already taken by the King piece.

Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


It may have led to Rum's ascension in the ranks... but it was such a high profile murder, one which fell short of the BO's ideal of a quiet accident/suicide that no one but a genius could see through.

Only one gripe with the review. How Kohji was able to foresee before dying that the Organization(we have no data to back-up whether Kojhi knew their presence.) was going to promote the killer in the ranks? Why would he put it into the dying message instead of the killer's identity?


Just because it reads RUM doesn't mean he knew of the org. It could be a Vermouth situation, where the culprit was being blackmailed by someone who calls themselves "Vermouth." Also by the way, we don't know how the BO was such a long time ago, could have been a small group of people. At the start it may have been just Rum and the Boss.

But when it comes to that theory I think it has to do more likely with what Kohji himself was doing. You know, playing games. The clue is obviously related in some way now that I think about it. Maybe it's Rum's motive to murder, since Kohji heard something he shouldn't have.
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 20th, 2017, 2:19 am

Spoiler:
k11chi wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
andrasb wrote:
Hi everybody!

My name is andrasb, and that's my first post in DCTP Forum. I am very happy, that there is a place, where can I read opions, theories regarding DC. I'd like to share one, which can be read in the spoiler box (I put it for safety).

I have recently developed a theory about Koji's death, particularly about his dying message. I have read some infos about chess, which can be found for example on the WP. First, perhaps you have heard, that there are some abbreviation for the chess figures, like for Pawn "P", King "K" or Knight "N". Then I went deeper in this topic, and I found, that a pawn should be promoted to queen, knight, rook, or bishop, if it reaches the eigth rank (=row). Of course, it's a free choice of the player. You can expect, that the chess players choose the queen.

What if the dying message was "simply" PTON = P TO N = Pawn promoted TO Knight? That's a chess move at the first glance, but it could be a coded message for a special someone, who can resolve it...

I know, that's rather a speculation at that moment, because of the ASACA RUM solution. But for me that's a really big luck, that names of two people can be puzzled from the mirror subscription.

What's your thought about this theory/speculation?


Welcome! Nice to have u here.

I like your line of thought. If Kohji wasn't that good in english, I wouldn't be surprised if he misspelled "Knight" and left behind "P T O N" instead of "P T O K". However, considering that he was well familiar with chess and was playing in the US, it's a bit unlikely that he wasn't familiar with the "Knight's spelling".

What would "Pawn TO kNight" entail anyway? :)


It wouldn't be a misspelling, Knight is abbreviated as N because K is already taken by the King piece.

Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


It may have led to Rum's ascension in the ranks... but it was such a high profile murder, one which fell short of the BO's ideal of a quiet accident/suicide that no one but a genius could see through.


Only one gripe with the review. How Kohji was able to foresee before dying that the Organization(we have no data to back-up whether Kojhi knew their presence.) was going to promote the killer in the ranks? Why would he put it into the dying message instead of the killer's identity?


Just because it reads RUM doesn't mean he knew of the org. It could be a Vermouth situation, where the culprit was being blackmailed by someone who calls themselves "Vermouth." Also by the way, we don't know how the BO was such a long time ago, could have been a small group of people. At the start it may have been just Rum and the Boss.
But when it comes to that theory I think it has to do more likely with what Kohji himself was doing. You know, playing games. The clue is obviously related in some way now that I think about it. Maybe it's Rum's motive to murder, since Kohji heard something he shouldn't have.


That is technically my gripe, how on earth Kouji would no whether his killer will be promoted or not?

Though I do think the dying message was a hint towards Koji's killer. He knew the killer else he wouldn't be writing a dying message, also it's highly probable that Amanda wasn't blackmailed, in fact she was threatened, that's why the body guard.

As far as the Dying message goes, I thought of three interpretations,
    Carasuma(indicating to a crest which Kohji had seen when he struggled against the killer./MTX version)
    Wakasa Rumi (Rumi was there and was struggling with the assailant. That's why dying message named Rumi, who would know more about the killer or someone killed him while cos-playing Rumi)
    Chikara Katsumata (An alias of Rum, he used this alias to knock off Kohji, but seems unlikely as Katsumata doesn't show much of a reaction to Kichi during the match despite having the same family name.)
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
andrasb
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby andrasb » May 20th, 2017, 6:07 am

Spimer wrote:(..)
Also, why leave such a complicated message if he was trying to leave a clue for the police to figure out the killer?


Zerozaki4869 wrote:Only one gripe with the review. How Kohji was able to foresee before dying that the Organization(we have no data to back-up whether Kojhi knew their presence.) was going to promote the killer in the ranks? Why would he put it into the dying message instead of the killer's identity?


That's a good question. Perhaps he didn't want to figure out, beacause he knew that it would be dangerous for police chasing RUM. Although the secret agencies could get the intel from this message. We dont't know what's the perspective of FBI or CIA... That's true, I cannot imagine myself to handle such way this situation at the border between live and death. (I rather name the culprit, also.)
Unless the second message would be more important for the inverstigation or the operation.

Foreseeing the promotion cannot be hard, if you know well the enemy (for eg. Clash of red and black series). Rum screwed up the case, said Gin about the murders happened 17 years ago (chapter 953 p. 16). His moves was perhaps calculated till a specific point where he realised that, and changed strategy. True, we don't know so much about his intelligence, but it must be high, if he is the right hand of theBoss. Although that's just a circumstantial "evident", so it could be overthinking.

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


The two interpretion are very interesting, I only thought the second scenario at first glance.

k11chi wrote:But when it comes to that theory I think it has to do more likely with what Kohji himself was doing. You know, playing games. The clue is obviously related in some way now that I think about it. Maybe it's Rum's motive to murder, since Kohji heard something he shouldn't have.


That's my thought exactly.
----------------------------------------------------
Something is bothering me even: the parents of Shiho died in the strange accident -- perhaps not long after that --, and Elena knew that coming. What if the two event was connected? For example, they could be the leak of the Organisation, and the complication of the murders arose Rum's suspicion... Although they were just scientists, but we don't know so much about them. Perhaps the some kind of flashback about Amuro and Elena could explain it. And also Amuro's motivation getting to PSB and BO.
I think I went so much in speculation, so I stop here, and wait for the new chapters. Looking at the current mangas and informations about it, we must wait some time :D
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 20th, 2017, 6:40 am

Spoiler:
andrasb wrote:
Spimer wrote:(..)
Also, why leave such a complicated message if he was trying to leave a clue for the police to figure out the killer?


Zerozaki4869 wrote:Only one gripe with the review. How Kohji was able to foresee before dying that the Organization(we have no data to back-up whether Kojhi knew their presence.) was going to promote the killer in the ranks? Why would he put it into the dying message instead of the killer's identity?


That's a good question. Perhaps he didn't want to figure out, beacause he knew that it would be dangerous for police chasing RUM. Although the secret agencies could get the intel from this message. We dont't know what's the perspective of FBI or CIA... That's true, I cannot imagine myself to handle such way this situation at the border between live and death. (I rather name the culprit, also.)
Unless the second message would be more important for the inverstigation or the operation.

Foreseeing the promotion cannot be hard, if you know well the enemy (for eg. Clash of red and black series). Rum screwed up the case, said Gin about the murders happened 17 years ago (chapter 953 p. 16). His moves was perhaps calculated till a specific point where he realised that, and changed strategy. True, we don't know so much about his intelligence, but it must be high, if he is the right hand of theBoss. Although that's just a circumstantial "evident", so it could be overthinking.

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Pawn to Knight could mean several things. For one, it could mean that a pawn takes a night on the chess board. Which could mean that someone low ranked killed someone of higher rank.

or it could mean that a pawn reached the other side of the board and became promoted to knight. Meaning that as a result of the murders, someone became a higher rank than they previously were.


The two interpretion are very interesting, I only thought the second scenario at first glance.

k11chi wrote:But when it comes to that theory I think it has to do more likely with what Kohji himself was doing. You know, playing games. The clue is obviously related in some way now that I think about it. Maybe it's Rum's motive to murder, since Kohji heard something he shouldn't have.


That's my thought exactly.
----------------------------------------------------
Something is bothering me even: the parents of Shiho died in the strange accident -- perhaps not long after that --, and Elena knew that coming. What if the two event was connected? For example, they could be the leak of the Organisation, and the complication of the murders arose Rum's suspicion... Although they were just scientists, but we don't know so much about them. Perhaps the some kind of flashback about Amuro and Elena could explain it. And also Amuro's motivation getting to PSB and BO.
I think I went so much in speculation, so I stop here, and wait for the new chapters. Looking at the current mangas and informations about it, we must wait some time :D


You're assuming that Haneda knew about the BO, which is unfounded. We don't have enough data to draw this conclusion.
Haneda was dying when he wrote the dying message. The only motivation to write a dying message is to implicate the killer without ambiguity, so why a logical and rational man like Haneda would go on and waste his strength on something like "Motive behind Amanda's murder" and/or Rum's promotion??
Let's assume Kohji's murder happened after Amanda's murder and Kohji heard something between the time frame, then why didn't Kohji raise a commotion or screamed for help??
Let's not complicate the dying messages anymore. One thing for sure, Kohji knew his assilant by his name or was able to identify him/her from some crest or similar stuff.
Last edited by Spimer on May 21st, 2017, 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
k11chi
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby k11chi » May 21st, 2017, 9:00 am

Pointing to the culprit in an indirect way does seem likely though.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 21st, 2017, 1:34 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:You're assuming that Haneda knew about the BO, which is unfounded. We don't have enough data to draw this conclusion.
Haneda was dying when he wrote the dying message. The only motivation to write a dying message is to implicate the killer without ambiguity, so why a logical and rational man like Haneda would go on and waste his strength on something like "Motive behind Amanda's murder" and/or Rum's promotion??
Let's assume Kohji's murder happened after Amanda's murder and Kohji heard something between the time frame, then why didn't Kohji raise a commotion or screamed for help??
Let's not complicate the dying messages anymore. One thing for sure, Kohji knew his assilant by his name or was able to identify him/her from some crest or similar stuff.

I agree with some of this, but I'm going to crosspost something I wrote on DCW as a reminder that we have to be mindful of GOSHO LOGIC™.
Full original post with more content here

[email protected] wrote: I think looking back at the Clenched Scissors and Clipped Glass Redux is extremely helpful as a guide for what Gosho thinks is possible and reasonable behavior for a criminal and victim in similar circumstances.

In the case redux, the culprit Senba lured the victim Hiyama to a location of his choosing with a false pretense, the toilet room where the weapon was located. Senba then attacked Hiyama in the toilet room, delivering an initial head wound to Hiyama. Despite being a one-way exit (toilets almost never have two doors) and bodyguards present at the home, 61 year old Hiyama managed to escape 50ya Senba, but chose to shut himself in the adjacent bathroom with no exit, yet was not able to alert the bodyguards by yelling, banging on windows, or anything else a panicking victim might reasonably try (and we don't know if Hiyama tried). Senba broke into the bathroom (you can see the damage to the latch in 948.11). In that time, Hiyama cut the dying message knowing he would be killed. Hiyama feared the message would be discovered if the the cut glass fragments were left obviously, and so chose to throw the leftovers at the culprit and make a mess to hide his message in. Senba then took a shower and pretended to find the body. (The wet slipper clue and purposeful stepping on the glass doesn't make much sense to me as described, and I'm not sure if it's a translation issue or a case logic issue. The shower and a towel/Senba's clothes being wet after the blood washing seems more pressing than any sandals being wet.)

There are many conclusions about Gosho logic we can draw from this chain of events. Admittedly some is unusual in hindsight, but that's what we have to work with and we shouldn't expect the Kohji case to be logically cleaner than this one. Without further ado, Gosho thinks:

• The victim's first reaction upon being attacked is fight or flight. Victims don't always make the optimal choice though. Hiyama fled to a room with only one exit instead of a different location with more escapes or somewhere he could alert his bodyguards from.
• It's plausible for bodyguards not to be posted nearby relevant rooms and be out of earshot even if a fight, an escape, and a door breaking take place.
• Bodyguards may have very selective hearing. They can hear a heavy ball thrown on a roof, but not a door being kicked in. They even went over to inspect the source of the sound which was near the crime scene - the toilet and the adjacent bathroom, but apparently didn't hear anything. The timing of their investigation might have been off relative to the killing, but still. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• In fact, I'm plain assuming that Kohji's case may also involve "bodyguards" who may completely suck at their jobs and not do logical things like we think they ought to.
• Cutting of glass can be done in the time it takes for an attacker to break down a door.
• 948.11 shows Hiyama's hands, assuming he was right handed, not bleeding from the glass cutting process. It is possible to cut the glass in a rush without splitting your fingers.
• A victim leaving a dying message in cut glass thinks it is logical to attempt to obscure the message if they think the attacker will have time to remove it. They may do this with more broken stuff.
• A victim might agree to meet with a culprit he/she wronged and doesn't trust.
• A culprit might be just fine taking his sweet time after the crime fixing things up if he thinks he is not going to be walked in on. And apparently bodyguards are predictable enough not to walk in on people.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Regarding dying message, I wonder if the mirror was in fact the only dying message. While we don't know if it is directly related, Rumi having what is apparently a shogi piece does make me concerned there is more to the crime scene than shown so far.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 21st, 2017, 3:39 pm

@Check, if that is really a shogi piece in Rumi's pocket and the mirror is not the only dying message then does it mean that Chikara Katsumata is not as innocent as we had thought in the first place?
jason342
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby jason342 » May 22nd, 2017, 10:55 am

The dying message that Kouji was so desperate to write in his last moments (ASACA RUM) makes me even more suspicious of Asaka the bodygaurd.

It's strange, assuming, of course, that Kouji knew Asaka, and that he would highlight their name alongside Rum's. Kouji surely knew that this could lead to a manhunt for Asaka.

I just can't help but think that Asaka could have betrayed him in his final moments, it's quite possible that Kouji overheard Rum's name from Amanda before she was killed (again pure speculation based on the possibility of Amanda having links to the BO) then, at that point, he could have made the connection between Asaka and their code-name RUM.

Besides, like many other people have said, just because Amanda had connections to the CIA and FBI doesn't mean that she wasn't linked with the BO: she could have been an informant for them that exceeded her usefulness.
Last edited by Spimer on May 22nd, 2017, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed grammar and added paragaphs.
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 30

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 22nd, 2017, 2:06 pm

jason342 wrote:The dying message that Kouji was so desperate to write in his last moments (ASACA RUM) makes me even more suspicious of Asaka the bodygaurd.

It's strange, assuming, of course, that Kouji knew Asaka, and that he would highlight their name alongside Rum's. Kouji surely knew that this could lead to a manhunt for Asaka.

I just can't help but think that Asaka could have betrayed him in his final moments, it's quite possible that Kouji overheard Rum's name from Amanda before she was killed (again pure speculation based on the possibility of Amanda having links to the BO) then, at that point, he could have made the connection between Asaka and their code-name RUM.

Besides, like many other people have said, just because Amanda had connections to the CIA and FBI doesn't mean that she wasn't linked with the BO: she could have been an informant for them that exceeded her usefulness.


A) How a code-name of a faceless and unidentified killer would help anymore than the alias which the killer used?(Rum was unknown to both CIA and FBI)
B) Why using the less effective identification (Rum) with more effective identification (Asaka) to obfuscate the whole message?
C) If Rum was Asaka then why Rum didn't kill Amanda earlier? He would have plenty of time to pull it off. Why did he choose such a time of inconvenience?
Nemomon
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » May 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
jason342 wrote:The dying message that Kouji was so desperate to write in his last moments (ASACA RUM) makes me even more suspicious of Asaka the bodygaurd.

It's strange, assuming, of course, that Kouji knew Asaka, and that he would highlight their name alongside Rum's. Kouji surely knew that this could lead to a manhunt for Asaka.

I just can't help but think that Asaka could have betrayed him in his final moments, it's quite possible that Kouji overheard Rum's name from Amanda before she was killed (again pure speculation based on the possibility of Amanda having links to the BO) then, at that point, he could have made the connection between Asaka and their code-name RUM.

Besides, like many other people have said, just because Amanda had connections to the CIA and FBI doesn't mean that she wasn't linked with the BO: she could have been an informant for them that exceeded her usefulness.


A) How a code-name of a faceless and unidentified killer would help anymore than the alias which the killer used?(Rum was unknown to both CIA and FBI)
B) Why using the less effective identification (Rum) with more effective identification (Asaka) to obfuscate the whole message?
C) If Rum was Asaka then why Rum didn't kill Amanda earlier? He would have plenty of time to pull it off. Why did he choose such a time of inconvenience?


We don't know whether the FBI and CIA knew Rum or not. We only know that they screwed their job. But we know that only from Gin's words. It could be that Rum made their job fine, but Gin doesn't like them and is looking for nonexisting holes.

For this reason maybe better was to use "Rum" than "Asaka", because while "Rum" is a permanent code name (and people can make connections), "Asaka" might be just a temp name that will lead to nowhere. In other words, the FBI/CIA might already have files regarding Rum and add a yet another murder to these files. For Asaka they won't add anything, because they don't know that alias.

C) Maybe the reason for that was that Rum got the order to kill her pretty late. Maybe Rum's mission was to see whether Amanda betrayed the BO, and after informing the HQ that she indeed did, the HQ decided to immediately murder her. Or maybe Rum seen something that would be against the BO and decided to act immediately and kill her. Read: the murder of her was not planned at all, but due to some unexpected events Rum was forced (or had no choice but) to kill her.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 30

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 22nd, 2017, 2:44 pm

Nemomon wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
jason342 wrote:The dying message that Kouji was so desperate to write in his last moments (ASACA RUM) makes me even more suspicious of Asaka the bodygaurd.

It's strange, assuming, of course, that Kouji knew Asaka, and that he would highlight their name alongside Rum's. Kouji surely knew that this could lead to a manhunt for Asaka.

I just can't help but think that Asaka could have betrayed him in his final moments, it's quite possible that Kouji overheard Rum's name from Amanda before she was killed (again pure speculation based on the possibility of Amanda having links to the BO) then, at that point, he could have made the connection between Asaka and their code-name RUM.

Besides, like many other people have said, just because Amanda had connections to the CIA and FBI doesn't mean that she wasn't linked with the BO: she could have been an informant for them that exceeded her usefulness.


A) How a code-name of a faceless and unidentified killer would help anymore than the alias which the killer used?(Rum was unknown to both CIA and FBI)
B) Why using the less effective identification (Rum) with more effective identification (Asaka) to obfuscate the whole message?
C) If Rum was Asaka then why Rum didn't kill Amanda earlier? He would have plenty of time to pull it off. Why did he choose such a time of inconvenience?


We don't know whether the FBI and CIA knew Rum or not. We only know that they screwed their job. But we know that only from Gin's words. It could be that Rum made their job fine, but Gin doesn't like them and is looking for nonexisting holes.

For this reason maybe better was to use "Rum" than "Asaka", because while "Rum" is a permanent code name (and people can make connections), "Asaka" might be just a temp name that will lead to nowhere. In other words, the FBI/CIA might already have files regarding Rum and add a yet another murder to these files. For Asaka they won't add anything, because they don't know that alias.

C) Maybe the reason for that was that Rum got the order to kill her pretty late. Maybe Rum's mission was to see whether Amanda betrayed the BO, and after informing the HQ that she indeed did, the HQ decided to immediately murder her. Or maybe Rum seen something that would be against the BO and decided to act immediately and kill her. Read: the murder of her was not planned at all, but due to some unexpected events Rum was forced (or had no choice but) to kill her.


We know it Jolly well. If Rum was already known by CIA and FBI, then Kir and Akai wouldn't have termed the existence of news about Rum a new development.
Gin refers that Kohji case was job which Rum screwed up. The room was in a disarray, Bo figured out the dying message that's why they did send Vermouth and Bourbon to investigate the ASACA song case. So letting a dying message and failing to clean up amounts to screw up in BO standards.
You see, the problem with your proposition is that you're assuming
a) Haneda knwe Rum's codename.
b) Rum's codename and every other details is there with the law enforcement.
c) Haneda knew that law enforcement knew about Rum.
We have no proof for first one. We have implicit evidence provided by Akai and Kir's statements against the second proposition. The thirs proposition becomes worthless after this findings.
I would rather urge you to do a through re-reading from the beginning of the Rum arc.
Nemomon
User avatar

This is my melody and it's just the raver's fantasy

Posts: 1009

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » May 22nd, 2017, 3:26 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Nemomon wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
jason342 wrote:The dying message that Kouji was so desperate to write in his last moments (ASACA RUM) makes me even more suspicious of Asaka the bodygaurd.

It's strange, assuming, of course, that Kouji knew Asaka, and that he would highlight their name alongside Rum's. Kouji surely knew that this could lead to a manhunt for Asaka.

I just can't help but think that Asaka could have betrayed him in his final moments, it's quite possible that Kouji overheard Rum's name from Amanda before she was killed (again pure speculation based on the possibility of Amanda having links to the BO) then, at that point, he could have made the connection between Asaka and their code-name RUM.

Besides, like many other people have said, just because Amanda had connections to the CIA and FBI doesn't mean that she wasn't linked with the BO: she could have been an informant for them that exceeded her usefulness.


A) How a code-name of a faceless and unidentified killer would help anymore than the alias which the killer used?(Rum was unknown to both CIA and FBI)
B) Why using the less effective identification (Rum) with more effective identification (Asaka) to obfuscate the whole message?
C) If Rum was Asaka then why Rum didn't kill Amanda earlier? He would have plenty of time to pull it off. Why did he choose such a time of inconvenience?


We don't know whether the FBI and CIA knew Rum or not. We only know that they screwed their job. But we know that only from Gin's words. It could be that Rum made their job fine, but Gin doesn't like them and is looking for nonexisting holes.

For this reason maybe better was to use "Rum" than "Asaka", because while "Rum" is a permanent code name (and people can make connections), "Asaka" might be just a temp name that will lead to nowhere. In other words, the FBI/CIA might already have files regarding Rum and add a yet another murder to these files. For Asaka they won't add anything, because they don't know that alias.

C) Maybe the reason for that was that Rum got the order to kill her pretty late. Maybe Rum's mission was to see whether Amanda betrayed the BO, and after informing the HQ that she indeed did, the HQ decided to immediately murder her. Or maybe Rum seen something that would be against the BO and decided to act immediately and kill her. Read: the murder of her was not planned at all, but due to some unexpected events Rum was forced (or had no choice but) to kill her.


We know it Jolly well. If Rum was already known by CIA and FBI, then Kir and Akai wouldn't have termed the existence of news about Rum a new development.
Gin refers that Kohji case was job which Rum screwed up. The room was in a disarray, Bo figured out the dying message that's why they did send Vermouth and Bourbon to investigate the ASACA song case. So letting a dying message and failing to clean up amounts to screw up in BO standards.
You see, the problem with your proposition is that you're assuming
a) Haneda knwe Rum's codename.
b) Rum's codename and every other details is there with the law enforcement.
c) Haneda knew that law enforcement knew about Rum.
We have no proof for first one. We have implicit evidence provided by Akai and Kir's statements against the second proposition. The thirs proposition becomes worthless after this findings.
I would rather urge you to do a through re-reading from the beginning of the Rum arc.


Kir made the statement about Rum that they're on the run. Since almost nobody in the BO knows who really Rum is, it must mean that Rum doesn't work on the field but rather in the HQ, or somewhere else where they can work alone. It also means that it is pretty rare when they themselves join the action, and rather they want to use other BO members to do the work. Since Rum decuded to work on thid personally, Kir decided to inform her allies that the BO takes this thing seriously this time.

Since Haneda made a RUM death note, it must mean that 17 years ago Rum was already a code named member, and therefore there is a huge chance that the FBI/CIA already heard of them. Maybe back then they were not a second in command, but pretty sure they didn't get their code name for nothing. So maybe there ae files about him.

Haneda didn't need to know whether the law knows Rum or not. He figured that it will be better to use a code name (hoping someone already heard of it) than nothing or a name that might be fake (since a murderer wouldn't murder using their real name, but rather using a fake name). Did he know about Rum and the BO? Maybe, but also maybe he randomly just heard that name from Amanda. And decided to write it because it is always better to make any death note than not making a note at all.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.

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