ssjup81 wrote:I notice how Ran's character isn't given much opportunity to do much now, and the only reason i could see for that is that Gosho just can't think of anything to do with her character.
IMO, a lot of the characters' roles have probably changed due to the fact that the series have been going on for so long. For instance, imo, Ai's character is more of a baby-sitter for Mitsuhiko, Ayumi, and Genta now compared to the earlier part of the series.
Ran seems to be just the love-interest now. I mean, she always was, but even more so now.
I don't have too much of a problem with that, as far as Ran is concerned, but I wish more could be done with Ai since she's pivotal to the BO storyline.
Yeah I can agree to this at some extent, ai-chan's role greatly diminished after episode 345 (the halloween party one), but the episodes before that were very ai-centric (her introduction, a lot of Detective boy cases were ai-centric, bus jacking, four porches, etc etc)
Around the 400s (the introduction of Kir and the clash of red and black) didn't really mention haibara at all, but i think that's going to change, I think the introduction of Okiya is going to relate to Ai somehow, because she's the only one that seems to be suspicious.
Ran on the otherhand, for the first like 100ish episodes, her main role was 1 - love interest like you said (but she always is, despite how i hate that -_-) and 2 - "suspicous ran" in that, she's always thinking Conan = Shinichi. But I think that role has greatly diminished as well...
ssjup81 wrote:I notice how Ran's character isn't given much opportunity to do much now, and the only reason i could see for that is that Gosho just can't think of anything to do with her character.
IMO, a lot of the characters' roles have probably changed due to the fact that the series have been going on for so long. For instance, imo, Ai's character is more of a baby-sitter for Mitsuhiko, Ayumi, and Genta now compared to the earlier part of the series.
Ran seems to be just the love-interest now. I mean, she always was, but even more so now.
I don't have too much of a problem with that, as far as Ran is concerned, but I wish more could be done with Ai since she's pivotal to the BO storyline.
Yeah I can agree to this at some extent, ai-chan's role greatly diminished after episode 345 (the halloween party one), but the episodes before that were very ai-centric (her introduction, a lot of Detective boy cases were ai-centric, bus jacking, four porches, etc etc)
Around the 400s (the introduction of Kir and the clash of red and black) didn't really mention haibara at all, but i think that's going to change, I think the introduction of Okiya is going to relate to Ai somehow, because she's the only one that seems to be suspicious.
Ran on the otherhand, for the first like 100ish episodes, her main role was 1 - love interest like you said (but she always is, despite how i hate that -_-) and 2 - "suspicous ran" in that, she's always thinking Conan = Shinichi. But I think that role has greatly diminished as well...
Whatever happens, I need my Ai to take the main screen for once... XDDDD
With that said I'm from the old school xD. For me Ran is a really big improvement already (but then I'm completely jaded like that). Male mangakas have a tendency to only create girl characters that guys like. It's not their fault, when you make a start a manga series you naturally want people to like it. Ran isn't that "normal" though. She does have the characteristics of girl characters created my time but I think Gosho isn't only catering her personality to please his audience.
I am interested in your portrayal of Haibara though. If Haibara really ends up getting a death role I'll probably stop reading DC (it'll be like L's death all over again but a million times worse, I won't be able to take it)!
Haha speaking of no romance, to tell you the truth when Haibara said "I'm 18 and perfect for you <3" to Shinichi, even though the scene was funny, a part of me was really really sad xD. I was hoping she wouldn't be a girl to fall for the main character so easily (since they're the characters most likely to go through character decay and bashing). But eh ConanAi is hillarious and Haibara's character remainds intact,
Old school like me! I'm an old-timer too. And to be honest, when i first saw Ran, i was like "she is hard-core!" But now the new women to me are even more "hard-core" than I ever would have imagined back then! It's like the old-school standard of hard-core has nothing on these women....
Spoiler:
Reminds me of the 80s and 90s Disney princesses who I thought were so strong minded compared to the early D.I.D princesses, but not I look at the new princesses, Mulan and Tiana, and they are just waaay more hard-core"
Haibara just seems like a "death-role" waiting to happen...i'm afraid of that....
Misztina wrote: Maybe these "motherly women" lead characters are some sort of a wish of the author's. In the rushy, grey, sad world, where everything upsets you *switch to man brain* you just want to have a sweet, nice girl, who always smiles, thinks of how she can make you happy, is happy herself not someone you have to extra cheer up etc. etc. This is kinda egoistical, but afzter the usually 12 hours or more work, men (In Japan) probably need that. This is really unfortunate for those types of girls who aren't naturally optimistic and smiley ( smiley girls exist too, not only gloomy ones) and who can't hide their "bad" feelings and problems.
Thats an interesting thought there. Ran portrays to be optimistic, but she's wearing a mask. She's really just as depressed as Ai....well, not in the same way, but you get what I mean. Ai wears it on her face. Then again, Ai hides her true emotions behind a "poker face", but really she is becoming a loving person, after being raised in the BO to hate. when you mentioned that portrayal of men wanting a girl that can make them happy without effort reminds me of a Japanese Geisha....a sweet, nice, innocent, virgin, who will listen to all your problems, and bottle her own inside for your happiness...and makes sure you are happy...except Geishas are entertainers...who's seen Memoirs of a Geisha?
TheBlind wrote: Telling Conan the Professor is dead, pointing a gun at Conan while he's in a hospital bed, pretending Conan has a deadly spider on his back, and always finding the perfect moment to hurt Conan's ego(where it stings him the most). That's definition of a fun person in my book. .
That's fun to me too...but not fun for Conan....Conan gets pissed every time...he likes to be the one to do the teasing...but when the jokes on him, it hurts his ego..
@Ranger: I completely agree with your Spider-man theory. I've never been a big fan of Mary Jane because she was just so....stereotypical D.I.D....
Ran is the reason Okiya Subaru knows Shinichi is alive. Which means Shinichi is screwed.
Haibara being scared of Okiya Subaru will end up being similar to The Boy Who Cried Wolf considering how many times the person who you would think is evil is actually good (including Haibara herself I guess). Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan. Conan will regret his stupidity (and Ran's stupidity) when he is pointless cameod to death.
kkslider5552000 wrote:Ran is the reason Okiya Subaru knows Shinichi is alive. Which means Shinichi is screwed.
Haibara being scared of Okiya Subaru will end up being similar to The Boy Who Cried Wolf considering how many times the person who you would think is evil is actually good (including Haibara herself I guess). Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan. Conan will regret his stupidity (and Ran's stupidity) when he is pointless cameod to death.
I like my ideas and they need to happen.
There's pretty much a .01% chance that the "holmes fan" thing is anything more than a "shut up I'm not going to tell you the real reason" response.
Although, I think it would be incredibly awesome if Okiya managed to kill Conan just by appearing in pointless cameos.
especially how after he's done shootin' his lightning he just leans back and is like "man, I'm spent".
Although, if one thing is stopping Okiya from being evil, it would be his prepetually squinty eyes. In the entirety of DC, there's only been one bad guy with squinty eyes (the guy from the osaka tour guide case), and even he opened his eyes when it was revealed how he was the murderer.
and somehow I just can't see okiya opening his eyes. But maybe that's just how evil he is, he gets to be the first squinty-eyed villain in DC!
soratothamax wrote:@Ranger: I completely agree with your Spider-man theory. I've never been a big fan of Mary Jane because she was just so....stereotypical D.I.D....
If ya'll are still claiming Ran is a stereotypical D.I.D. when I've referenced her saving the title character hero and protect herself without his physical help, while you've seen Haibara saved by the title character and explicitly accept his protection then... well... enjoy your biased fanon take on the story.
kkslider5552000 wrote:Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan.
Why don't you troll the Haibara/couple threads? I'm trying to be polite and move the "Ran sucks" debates out of the Haibara threads so they can focus on saying how awesome and wonderful Haibara is. Apparently Ran isn't a topic open to discussion at all, just bashing. (And I'm not going {to} chicken out and edit this out this time. {I'll edit out the vulgar epithet, though ::) ... ::sigh:: and get the attribution right...}
Last edited by Nyarl on August 21st, 2009, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
soratothamax wrote:@Ranger: I completely agree with your Spider-man theory. I've never been a big fan of Mary Jane because she was just so....stereotypical D.I.D....
If ya'll are still claiming Ran is a stereotypical D.I.D. when I've referenced her saving the title character hero and protect herself without his physical help, while you've seen Haibara saved by the title character and explicitly accept his protection then... well... enjoy your biased fanon take on the story.
kkslider5552000 wrote:Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan.
Why don't you troll the Haibara/couple threads? I'm trying to be polite and move the "Ran sucks" debates out of the Haibara threads so they can focus on saying how awesome and wonderful Haibara is. Apparently Ran isn't a topic open to discussion at all, just bashing. (And I'm not going {to} chicken out and edit this out this time. {I'll edit out the vulgar epithet, though ::) ... ::sigh:: and get the attribution right...}
-_- are you trying to say that...Haibara is more of a damsel in distress than Ran? You obviously have forgotten like half of the godamn movies and episodes where Ran gets in trouble and conan's gotta save her. Let's see. Movie 1. Movie 2. Movie 4. Movie 9. movie 11...im just listing off the top of my head, theres god knows how many episodes of Ran being the damsel in distress.
ranger wrote: -_- are you trying to say that...Haibara is more of a damsel in distress than Ran? You obviously have forgotten like half of the godamn movies and episodes where Ran gets in trouble and conan's gotta save her. Let's see. Movie 1. Movie 2. Movie 4. Movie 9. movie 11...im just listing off the top of my head, theres god knows how many episodes of Ran being the damsel in distress.
Hmmm... I think we all need to stop repeating this pattern again... just my opinion ^_^
ranger wrote:-_- are you trying to say that...Haibara is more of a damsel in distress than Ran?
I think the point was that Ran is not that stereotypical (in manga) as you always claim and Haibara is not that super-unique character either. Nyarl is not an extremist (or so as I think) who runs around yelling that "Haibara is bad and Ran is good".
soratothamax wrote:@Ranger: I completely agree with your Spider-man theory. I've never been a big fan of Mary Jane because she was just so....stereotypical D.I.D....
If ya'll are still claiming Ran is a stereotypical D.I.D. when I've referenced her saving the title character hero and protect herself without his physical help, while you've seen Haibara saved by the title character and explicitly accept his protection then... well... enjoy your biased fanon take on the story.
kkslider5552000 wrote:Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan.
Why don't you troll the Haibara/couple threads? I'm trying to be polite and move the "Ran sucks" debates out of the Haibara threads so they can focus on saying how awesome and wonderful Haibara is. Apparently Ran isn't a topic open to discussion at all, just bashing. (And I'm not going {to} chicken out and edit this out this time. {I'll edit out the vulgar epithet, though ::) ... ::sigh:: and get the attribution right...}
i don't know where you see someone bashing Ran or saying that Ran "sucks" in the latest posts, they only answered to the topic" Ran's role changed?other's too"? so it's logical to see that some people thinks she's seen as a D.I.D now more than before ... (and haibara also has a D.I.D side so it's how the story goes) and we also mentionned how haibara's role changed also so i don't think it turned to an "haibara is awesome and Ran sucks"stupid and endless topic ,on the contrary...
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
mangaluva wrote:[/spoiler] "I've built a wall not to keep people out, but to see who loves me enough to climb over it."
While I entered this thread pre-tty late, I just want to add in my two cents about Ran, since I've been meaning to get it out for sometime now. I don't think Ran's a useless character, but I have to admit that her changes between moods/actions/role/etc. are highly erratic, especially in the recent stuff. I think it's basically what Miztina said earlier about Gosho switching between the trends of female protagonists in Japanese comics at the time. Of course, the poor, inconsistent writing in the movies doesn't help this at all from what I can tell and the anime isn't much better.
I've personally never had a problem with Ran; since I started reading 4-5 years ago, I always liked her character and found her to be more of a normal girl obliviously caught in a tight situation (association with a protagonist in a...well...tight situation). I like that she's on par with a more respectable female protagonist in a male-targetted comic, but still showed enough vulnerability and emotion to act like a regular girl. I thought it was good to have a "strong, yet regular" character like her in a sea of super-smart-genius-powerful-overPLOTHAX characters. Not that those are bad. I just like a breath of fresh air and I wouldn't be reading this series (hell, SUPERHERO and DETECTIVE comics even) if I didn't like those types of characters.
Yeah, she cries quite a bit, but the series puts her through a lot, frankly. and anyone whose had a long-distance relationship (add a "but not really" in Ran's case) would tell you that the absence and communication gap makes it much harder on both the relationship and the people themselves. Her childhood friend evades her the very few times he's around, he's off on a case that he barely speaks about (in his case it's understandable, possibly a "Need to Know"policy with authorities which is sort of is; I'd think she would know about this with her dad being a former police officer, but since his career in police ended when she was little,...eh), and dodges any questions ever made during phone calls, which is INCREDIBLY dickish behavior to someone who doesn't know what's actually going on. The readers, however, DO know that Shinichi can't talk about what he's doing and can't be around her because of the drug's effect, so that gets frustrating to anyone reading. People can easily talk big and say they wouldn't be at all emotional in such scenarios as not only having a relationship with someone who works around crime, but someone who YOU KNOW is holding a deep secret from you is a few of several aspects of a difficult dilemma.
Sorry if I'm not contributing much, Kirite and Nyarl basically said everything I was going to say in defense. They seem to reason much better than I do and I can't keep up._.; )
Also, on a side note, while people are still drawing comic book parallels(I'll keep this in spoilers so it doesn't hog my ENTIRE post, so just highlight if interested, don't want to bore anyone who isn't)
Spoiler:
I really wouldn't say Ran's all -that- much like Mary Jane Watson. Aside from parental issues (and Ran's isn't as bad as MJ's; Kogoro isn't a child/wife beater like MJ's father was), being the protagonist's love interest, (even getting married to him until One More Day FFFFFF DAMN YOU QUESADA *shakefist* but we won't go there), and having inner insecurities...not that much. Of anything, Ran highly resembles Lois Lane, Superman/Clark Kent's interest (nudge-nudge, wink-wink:"Clark Kent would kill for a pair of these!" "What does that make you without them, Superman?") Anyway, here's the similarities I've noticed for a while:
Both share a bond with the protagonist. Obligatory and obvious.
Believe it or not, Lois and Ran share continuity inconsistencies with varying personality traits, often because of variations in writer (Lois' case is due to 70 years worth of different writers and shifting attitudes towards women along with media interpretations by writer and Ran's is...well, Japanese heroine trends and different media interpretations by writer). Both can be whoop-ass in one comic period or run/movie/show, and in another completely different.
Because of the long-running comics that they're in, Lois and Ran change fashion a lot. Lois isn't consistent in her character design as Ran is, but she's usually wearing something fashionable at the time of the certain comics' issues/chapters publication. Gosho even admits to (at least when she was married to him) having help from Minami Takayama when it came to which clothes Ran would wear to keep up with current trends.
Lois and Ran share personalities, principally. Both are strong-willed, gentle, resolute, and often surpass the male protagonist's expectations. Both appear useless and D.I.D. on and off, but both stand firm more often than not.
Lois, like Ran, acts different around the protagonists' two personalities out of obliviousness. Lois acts cool, snarky and sometimes a bit flirty-in-denial around Clark like Ran does around Shinichi (it's EERILY similar). However, she's enamored by Superman's skills/strengths and has deep respect for him just like Ran does with Conan in a dangerous situation.
In the times Lois ventures out to know more about Superman (Ran has her tenacity), she comes close to finding his real identity and has conflicting feelings and anger about it. Naturally for this trope,both Lois and Ran are lead astray at the last minute and seem to forget quickly.
Both characters are kept in the dark about the secret of their love interest. If they know, they'll be in danger from their loved one's enemies (Both Conan and Superman have many, whether it's Gin and Vermouth or Brainiac and Lex Luthor), but in hiding their identities both Clark and Shinichi are breaking their lover's heart and going against their principles on integrity (Shinichi's 'one truth' and Superman's 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way').
Though this may have been on purpose for all I know. He's briefly referenced Superman in his other works, though given that Superman's one of the world's most recognizable comic characters, it's not a surprise.
Loving the Batman/Catwoman parallel with Conan and Ai, by the way. Pretty dead-on, at least for Ai being Selina Kyle in modern interpretations. Catwoman IS considered an enemy to Batman since she's a thief (as Ai may be considered to Conan at first since she was an Org. member and concocted deadly drugs that killed many people), but she's usually an ally/potential love interest/antihero in the Batman mythos. She has a brooding past, emotional problems, and scary tendencies like Ai does, but she isn't evil. Her crimes are often done with good intentions in later interpretations (acting like a Robin Hood stealing from greedy people while Ai works on an antidote). When Batman has to put up with these crazies (God, Jim Lee's Joker scares the hell out of me) on a daily basis, Catwoman's not much to worry about. Same goes with an ex- BO member as opposed to sinister, trigger-happy BO members. XD
In short of the spoilered stuff: Ran =/= Mary Jane. Ran = Lois Lane. But enough comic book talk, I'm rambling enough as it is (Why so TL;DR today, Fluent? 8D;;; ).
so i don't think it turned to an "haibara is awesome and Ran sucks"stupid and endless topic ,on the contrary...
I'll admit that it didn't, but the few posts earlier in the thread (Ran's a bitch, she's only good for fanservice, she's whiny, etc.) definitely carried that air like nothing else. Without civility and formality, threads about Ran get easily derailed (like a certain thread did; all of that's delated now, but you know which one I'm talking about with the request and the nobody likes her and..oyyy vey~).
What kills me is that Ran fans and Ai fans really can't get along due to shipping nonsense. Differing opinions are fine, and that's what makes a fandom fun, but expressing your opinions -doesn't- have to be a pissing match.
I like Ran AND Ai, but whenever a thread is made about one or the other, it becomes SO FIERY. Heck, the characters correspond well with one another. Ai even seems to hold Ran in good respects (after the Halloween incident, she tells Shinichi that "she's stronger than you think she is") and seems more protective/concerned with her since the BO encounter in #42, even reminding her of her sister Akemi at one point.
I just get frustrated with some lacks of compromise since I actually see some compromise, great discussion and admission to character faults in this very thread. But this is the Internet, where the 'DIE FOR OUR SHIP' aspect of fandom rages in all media so it becomes a regular and inevitable occurrence. :-\
Last edited by NotSoFluent on August 21st, 2009, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kentasaiba wrote:The question is what if Shiho had Rans role? They were childhoodfriends, and Kudo meet Ran as a 7 year old girl. Shiho would have the bath-scenes and Ran in her white coat and that creppy look. If so, would there be more Ran fans?
probably
if that happened, everyone would bash haibara for her haircut..lol "whats up with her haircut?!!! maaan"
It all lies in character, I bet I would like Ran if the roles were switched up, because from what I've observed I always like the character that has a sad past/history...
I think a good example would be John Locke in LOST, hes my fave char because he has such a touching story
ranger wrote:if that happened, everyone would bash haibara for her haircut..lol "whats up with her haircut?!!! maaan"
As strange as the hair on some of Gosho's characters looks...that's an odd complaint to have about a character, -especially- a manga character.
But yeah, people tend to pick at a character/anything's even minor traits to find something they don't like about them (i.e. hurf durf, DC sucks because the characters have triangles for noses).
Last edited by NotSoFluent on August 21st, 2009, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<3" to Shinichi, even though the scene was funny, a part of me was really really sad xD. I was hoping she wouldn't be a girl to fall for the main character so easily (since they're the characters most likely to go through character decay and bashing). But eh ConanAi is hillarious and Haibara's character remainds intact, 
.
