I'm still annoyed at the Revival/Shinichi's Return/Shirigami-sama case

[Misztina]

Now, I do understand why the Shiragami and London case were not up to the measure, but I would not call them "the same old story" at all. Each had a different purpose with kind of different outcomes.

Desperate Revival: Shinichi got his body back in order to fool Ran and get rid of her suspicion, because otherwise it would have been extreamly difficut, if not impossible to keep Ran out of the BO-plot, at least from Shinichi's side. Shinichi wanted to confess her, trying to copy his parent's way =>romantic, classical restaurant confession, he was too nervous and went on to investigate to gain courage. But he ran out of time, without knowing how long the antidote will wear of, so he was caught off guard. He could only go back as Conan to say "wait for me" , Ran was upset, because she felt like she was stood up.

Shiragami: Random case, Heiji, Kogoro and co. go on to reinvestigate an old Shinichi case. Due to some misunderstandings Conan takes the wrong pill, turns back to Shinichi, blah, blah, since he is together with Ran and co. Haibara helps him out with another pill, which is less effective. Ran wants him to ask what he thinks about her, but she istoo shy to do so, Shinichi finally says, that he also has something to tell to her, probably the same, so wait for him, but Ran holds his hands tight, while she knows she'll miss the opportunity if she lets him go. Ran gets knocked out, Haibara saves the day and Shinichi. Ran is okay with the current situation, since there was no confession, but she let Shinichi know how she feels, more or less.

I just realized the third belongs to the spoilers. ^^"

Spoiler:

London case: Conan & co. randomly get to London, Ran is excited she wants to please Shinichi, but finds out that he is enjoying himself in London as well, so she gets mad furious, it is not fair, she wanted to meet him again and wanted to surprise him and everything and Shinichi does not even realize her needs. But Shinichi says, "Dammit, I love you, okay?". Not with these words of course. XD Then they were so embarassed, that they actually did not want to meet with eachother. Shinichi turned back to Conan not as planned, but it did not really matter at that time. And there was no "wait for me".

Now how are these repetative? That Shinichi turned back to Conan? That there was no kiss? (I do feel disappointed about that, I'd love to see that. <3).

[sonoci]

At this point the only reasons I'd want to see Shinichi would be A) what Wakari said about him appearing in a BO plot or B) to simply solve a case. The latter is because a majority (obviously) have been solved by Conan. This isn't a repeat I get frustrated at as Gosho does all he can to make it differ and Conan doesn't have much of a choice. It's also kind of like a 'once an episode' thing, so it's not that bad.

I want to see Shinichi solving cases so we can see a bit more of his deducing ways (we see it a bit in Heiji, but I'd love to see a scene like "Oh wait, I'm not Conan anymore. I can just ask directly" xD) Other than cases or BO, though, Shinichi can just stay on the volume cover pages thanks

@ Misztina: Sorry, I guess 'wait for me' was the wrong way to put it. The Shinichi turning back to Conan was mandatory, but the no kiss was not. I think I'd be much more satisfied (even not as a ShinRan) if they'd kissed. A confession is one thing, but...I suppose now is when the wait comes in. I think the 'wait for me' is actually more for the fans at this point than Ran. To her, only a month/something goes by, but to us it's years. The main problem I think is also just the Shiragami case. That one...was basically nothing. The repeat is 'wait for me so I/you can tell you/me how I/you feel'. ...Oh wait, I think I have it.

It's a step back.

That's what it is. It's partially repetitive, it's partially boring, but it is completely a step back.

Spoiler:

Not London, per se (though it could be if tackled enough) but the Shirigami.

Desperate Revival had Shinichi not only convince her he wasn't Conan but a lot of other things as well: solved a few cases as Shinichi (interesting - hasn't been seen since ep 48), go through a school day (interesting - not since ep 1), nearly kissed Ran (WHOA MAN - not since his imagination), invited her on a date (WHOA MAN - not since his imagination), nearly confessed to her/proposed considering what his parents did there (HOLY ****, not even in his imagination so realistically!) turned back to Conan at the wrong time (not so interesting in comparison to ShinRan at this point) then told Ran to wait for him (aw, ain't it sweet?)

The Shirigami case had a recap of a case Shinichi had done (okay, a bit of Shinichi again...though it's kinda like the airplane) Shinichi coming back (oh, cool, he's back, maybe he'll get to kiss Ran/propose/confess) and...other things that, frankly IMO, weren't too interesting in comparison to the Desperate Revival.

Spoiler:

Same actually goes for the London case: with no kiss that nearly happened in DR and only a vague confession opposed to the 'in the fanciest restaurant in the city possible proposal' it really doesn't hold up. Looking at it, I probably wouldn't have had many problems if the order of events had been: Shirigami > London > DR. Then it would've, noticeable event wise, been: Hint to Ran about Shinichi's feelings, wait for me > Vague confession, break from the wait for me > Almost kiss, date, hints at proposal, wait for me possibly repetitive but at least given a break with London (and added in) chance for Ran to recuperate her feels. With this it would've built up...rather than built down (if that makes any sense)

[Shuusgirl]

But I don't think they could be any other order because the ShinRan stuff isn't the only thing that's happening here.  I mean, the basic bones of them are the same (Shinichi comes back, something happens, Shinichi runs out of time and changes into Conan) but if you look at it from the point of Shinichi's growth, then they're all different. 
First case with Hattori--Thinks he's back for good, is his old show-off self, shrinks.
Desperate Revival--Thinks he's really back for good, shows off, draws out confessing until he thinks it'll be perfect, shrinks without confessing.
Shirigami--Knows it's temporary, takes care of the case first and then knows he can't confess yet (since he knows he'll be Conan in a few hours) but hints at it so she more or less knows without the guilt that would come over a true confession, shrinks.

Spoiler:

London--Turns into Shinichi, says, "to heck with the case" and tells Ran he likes her. 

There's definite shift in priorities (not to mention a deflation of his head) each time he returns.  That's why I like them, although they'd lose their punch if it was more and more frequent without other arcs tied up in it.  The ShinRan arc is more or less finished seeing as all we need is an answer (and a kiss please?) but becoming Shinichi isn't just about confessing, it's also to show growth.

I don't understand why every character in a series has to change over time Some people stay the same forever :V Or be at least the same for the most part.

because everybody in real life change over time... it makes the series more realistic...

Yeah over time. But not everybody changes drastically.
Also, "over time". There is no real timeline in DC. The DC world didn't pass 10+ years, like in the real world.

First of all, the whole "over time" thing doesn't matter much.  I mean, look at the stories that take place in a day or two.  It doesn't matter how much time has actually passed in a book, it's the situations that change that character that matter. 

Spoiler: English Major in me talking...

Ok, so if you don't have your characters grow, then they become stagnant.  This is bad because your plot should come from your characters, not the other way around.  However, there are a few characters that don't grow, called static characters.  Atticus from To Kill A Mockingbird is the best example.  But you notice that he's there TO be the same, add some stability.  In DC, I'd say that Megure is a static character, which is fine.  But if your leading characters are static, it's boring.

[Misztina]

Oh, don't get me wrong, as I said, I'm far from being satisfied with the Shiragami case, I just wanted point out that not the repetativeness is the exact problem.

The execution was a bit meh, and I have to agree with you on that. It was definitely nowhere to Desperate Revival, sadly.

[Shuusgirl]

I think that the Shirigami case was just meant to be that: a case.  I don't think it was supposed to be huge, just a reminder that Conan is, in fact, Shinichi.  After all, we hadn't seen him for a long time.  Cutting to the chase, I don't think it was ever supposed to be as big as the Revival arc.

[sonoci]

All very good points, but as I said before there's millions of ways to deal with something. In fact, if it weren't for the fact the show is called 'Detective Conan' Gosho could've had Shinichi solve a few cases, get suspicious of the BO, actually get a bit far into what they were doing (maybe even meet Shiho) then get whacked and shrunk. The same thing goes with the Shinichi coming back arcs. As they are now, you're right, they wouldn't fit together, but that doesn't mean Gosho couldn't have handled it better. The 'mistake', if you could call it that, was that Desperate Rival was too grand: one of the climaxes (maybe even THE climax) came too soon and was too great, dimming everything after it. The fact that people are still waiting for this kiss is partial proof of this: they've seen it almost happen and the fans want it to be pulled through.

What gets to me, I think, is that the growth of Shinichi as Conan was only really regarded in Desperate Revival. There's a huge jump from his return with Heiji to his return in DR. In the first comeback, he's only interested in the case, in the second, he comes back specifically for Ran and then gets thrown into cases. He almost confesses, but the time runs out again. Not only is the time limit different, Shinichi's behavior is very much different in his first appearance opposed to his second, especially towards Ran. In the first, it could almost be said he kind of brushes Ran off, but in the second he's all about her. This IMO is because he saw Ran's reaction to Shinichi showing up in person, went through the suspicion part, even decided to tell her he was Conan, but then tricked her to almost confess. All of DR helped show some development from Shinichi's Conan side, but to me, the other two after DR don't show this. From a Shinichi-only point of view, the development is nice, but there's actually the fact that he's also Conan. Shinichi's 'time-as-Conan' development is lacking in his appearances, staggering when you see how different he is as Conan.

Regarding characters changing, it's all so very true. Major characters that stay the same are boring. Side characters that stay the same aren't boring: they aren't the focus.

Shirigami just as a case to be a reminder that Conan is Shinichi...kinda seems...redundant. Why? ...Um, let's see, I think it-
Conan: A child with the mind of an adult, his name is...Detective CONAN!
...Oh yeah, that was it.

@Misztina: I suppose I'm very nitpicky when it comes to even the slightest repetitiveness xD My friends could vouch on that one

[Shuusgirl]

Part of me wonders if the DR arc was supposed to be one of the climaxes.  After all, it was towards the start, maybe Gosho still didn't know how big it would be.  That would explain a lot.
And I disagree that the growth only comes in the DR arc.  Yes, the growth there is huge, but he's still trying to arrange everything to be perfect.  (as you can see from the restaurant thing and such).  Not that that's a problem per se, but for Shinichi it is.  And I think he still puts the case before Ran, although not as much as the first time.  By the time the Shirigami case comes, he puts her first even more.  And the London arc he doesn't care that much about the case compared to her.  But it's true the most dramatic growth comes from the DR arc.  On the other hand, that's to be expected.  If he grew that much he can't have so much of a growth later.

[Wakarimashita]

As far as I'm concerned, the characters can remain the same, I don't mind. As long as some of the cases (preferably a majority) keep me interested, then I'm fine with the status quo. As of now, I think that even though the cases aren't as brilliant as they used to be, most of them are still a pleasant read one way or another. With almost 75 volumes behind him, I think Gosho is still doing a pretty good job. Thus, for the moment, I don't feel the urge to see any progression that would maybe hint a near ending of the story. However, I do understand that from a different perspective, the waiting can get annoying, especially for the BO and romance fans. My main problem with Shinichi reappearing too much would be the coherence of the story. The other issue is that I'm not really into romance, so it gets more boring each time (at least for me).

[c-square]

I have to do these quotes by hand, otherwise I'll be shown what's in those spoiler tags.

Now how are these repetative? That Shinichi turned back to Conan? That there was no kiss? (I do feel disappointed about that, I'd love to see that. <3).

For me, they're repetitive because I can now predict basically how the next one will go.  Conan somehow returns to his Shinichi form.  When Ran meets him, she's at first weepy and sentimental to see him, while he plays it cool, but subtly lets his affection show.  She then gets angry at him and they play off each other for a while.  A case happens either before or during this time, and he goes off to solve it.  She plays the dutiful girlfriend, giving him space to do his thing, while still keeping him close to avoid being abandoned.  Either he'll protect her or she will take care of him somehow (or both).  Some sort of major relationship progression is hinted at, but before they can fully get there, Shinichi starts to run out of time.  There is a crisis where he is trapped and might turn into Conan in front of her (or possibly others), and by some trick, is able to avoid being seen transforming.  Conan returns to Ran to offer some consolation and some subtle relationship progression.  Ran says it's okay, she'll wait before switching gears to a happy face and a funny/sappy ending.  The upcoming London story may not have all of these, but I'm confident that at least 75% of these elements will be there.  (Please don't tell me if they are, though.  I'd rather wait and see for myself).

But I don't think they could be any other order because the ShinRan stuff isn't the only thing that's happening here.  I mean, the basic bones of them are the same (Shinichi comes back, something happens, Shinichi runs out of time and changes into Conan) but if you look at it from the point of Shinichi's growth, then they're all different.

You raise a really good point.  I had only thought about these in terms of ShinRan growth, but when I look at it in terms of simply growth for Shinichi, they do make sense and have value.  Thanks!  I think this line of thinking will help me dread them a little less.

The 'mistake', if you could call it that, was that Desperate Rival was too grand: one of the climaxes (maybe even THE climax) came too soon and was too great, dimming everything after it.

You've just put into words what I've subconsciously known for a long time.  Desperate Revival was too epic, and although there have been BO arcs that rival it, nothing since has come close in terms of ShinRan growth.  Perhaps nothing will match it until the very end, and I'll just have to be disappointed until then.

[Shuusgirl]

Well, Ran grows a bit each time too.  The first time she way stays out of the way.  DR she lets him lead everything.  Shiragami she actively tries to hold on to him. 

Spoiler:

And London arc she finally says what she's been thinking this whole time.  And goads Shinichi into more or less confessing.

Her growth isn't as obvious or dramatic as Shinichi's, but it's still there.  Yeah, from a ShinRan point of they're pretty similar, but I like the character growth in them.

[Misztina]

For me, they're repetitive because I can now predict basically how the next one will go.  Conan somehow returns to his Shinichi form. 
When Ran meets him, she's at first weepy and sentimental to see him, while he plays it cool, but subtly lets his affection show.  She then gets angry at him and they play off each other for a while.  A case happens either before or during this time, and he goes off to solve it.  She plays the dutiful girlfriend, giving him space to do his thing, while still keeping him close to avoid being abandoned.  Either he'll protect her or she will take care of him somehow (or both).  Some sort of major relationship progression is hinted at, but before they can fully get there, Shinichi starts to run out of time.  There is a crisis where he is trapped and might turn into Conan in front of her (or possibly others), and by some trick, is able to avoid being seen transforming.  Conan returns to Ran to offer some consolation and some subtle relationship progression.  Ran says it's okay, she'll wait before switching gears to a happy face and a funny/sappy ending. 

Certainly we can't make Gosho break the spell. DC is mostly a detective story, so a case is bound to happen and of course it will be somehow in the middle of ShinxRan things, otherwise the "suspense" is gone. It's natural that the main hero has to solve the case (although we had already at least one case where Conan did not solve the case).
Ran will get sentimental and angry after seeing Shinichi... yeah. In Heiji's first appearance it happened like that. In Desperate Revival Ran was not weepy or angry or anything. She was like WTH, Shinichi is not Conan?. Then in the Shiragami case she cried again, but wasn't angry, and hopefully i this summer you'll see the other case.
Ran playing the dutiful girlfriend... now it would be complete non-sense if she would butt-in the case saying, allright, Shinichi is coming with me, our relationship is more important than this madness. The police will handle this. It is against DC's plot competely. And Shinichi's cases are super difficult and Ran knows too well, that he is needed there otherwise the case wouldn't be solved and she would feel miserable if the true murderer was running around freely because of her selfishness.
Protecting:
Heiji case: No protecting.
Desperate Revival: *thinks* No protecting, but she was taking care of fainting Shinichi.
Shiragami: Protecting on high level.
etc..
---

DC has a structure, has a few WTF moments, but that's all. Predictability is not really about repetition. DC is cornered by its own plot and world which cannot stretch too much, so it is easy to say: I knew it. Knowing Gosho's style, DC's style you would know what are the possibilities and what are completely out of question. It's completely different from let's say One Piece, which is an unknown, open world where seriously anything can happen, no wonder that it can surprise the audience every single time.
I think DC has its limits, it cannot go beyond them, but it moves quite well in its small pond(world).

In romance DC is even more limited, because we know Shinichi's and Ran's character, we know a kiss would only happen perhaps in the end or during Shinichi's dying scene (even if he doesn't die in the end XD).

I don't say that it couldn't have been done better, but it's not bad and you will see in  the London case how many of those points you made will come true. And how! Which is also important.

I still enjoy DC, accepting is limits, we can't expect the impossible. (too bad I share Poppy-chan dream about having a Detective Shinichi and a more adult (not in THAT way XD) version of DC *_*) Dreaming is fine though. That's why fanfics exist. ^^

[randompi314159]

I'll agree that the Shiragami case and the London case don't measure up to the DR cases, which were epic, in terms of ShinRan development. And that both Shinichi and Ran have shown some development individually, which affects their relationship. But each time Shinichi returns, it served a different purpose, so to speak. His return in the DR was specifically to address Ran's suspicion and to hopefully clear them. In the Shiragami case, he accidently returned to his original body and just ended up solving the case.

Spoiler:

the London one, well, he just wanted go to London

A possible reason as to why the his other return appearances don't seem as exciting as they were in the DR and didn't develop ShinRan to the extent that the DR cases is Shinichi's goals didn't involve developing his relationship with Ran and lacked the sufficient time to even do so while in DR, after he revealed himself, he had the time and intended, or so it appeared, he wanted to confess to Ran. The other reason being that these cases are recent and aren't up to the old cases' standards, but like it has been stated before, it's been 17 years and is different from other long-going mangas/animes such as One Piece. I still find some enjoyment in these cases despite the predictability as I can't see them ending in another way until the ending, which still has some degree of predictableness to it.

As for the frequency of Shinichi's returns, I would like to see him return to face off against the BO for once rather than for the romance plots, but that may also signal the end is near.

[JohnTitor]

Heh, it was this case that started the "just-take-the-pill-when-you're-in-danger" system. Conan used to DREAM if he could turn into Shinichi again and then CONFESS to Ran. (What ever happened to the deep feelings of the Desperate Revival arc -- especially the part when they had dinner in the hotel?) Now he turns back to his normal body like morphing into Power Ranger or something. And that's for nothing, except saving the "Conan-not-Shinichi" stuff.

Spoiler:

And London Case AMPLIFIED this, into something so silly I can't even find what's cool from it. He's became too dependant on the antidote. It was started with this case. And it was started by mistaking antidote for the flu medicine... (What was Haibara thinking? Putting antidote THERE???) Oh well.

Edit : marked by dilbert for spoiler.

[saintmi]

Don't  be serious.Before Gosho makes enough money，he won't let Shinichi revive or end this story.

[Freyr]

I'll agree with the sentiment that DR happened before it's time. Gosho had no way of knowing that DC would become so popular and successful and has continually made strides to forward and resolve the story, but has had to add in and more to continue the story until it is time to end it, which then shifts plans for when stuff is revealed and how he gets to the end, and of course, messes with the ShinRan relationship and has thrown doubt into Haibara's character's purpose.

Very interesting indeed.