I'm still annoyed at the Revival/Shinichi's Return/Shirigami-sama case

[thorongil]

i must say that for me ai always seemed to have more of an admiring/respecting love towards kudo and she thinks of ran is too much much of a resemblence of her sister as that she would hurt ran with changing kudos heart... thats my conclusion at least

[kkslider5552000]

i must say that for me ai always seemed to have more of an admiring/respecting love towards kudo and she thinks of ran is too much much of a resemblence of her sister as that she would hurt ran with changing kudos heart... thats my conclusion at least

...which would be fine if he was still telling that story. Which he is not.

[thorongil]

he can still continue telling the story about ai admiring him... but now it is kinda hard/unlikely for ai to achieve something
who says that plot twists are limited to the BO plot ... never give up hope (or something like that), ne?!

[ranger]

kkslider don't pretend you're not an aicon, we all know it.

[Shuusgirl]

i must say that for me ai always seemed to have more of an admiring/respecting love towards kudo and she thinks of ran is too much much of a resemblence of her sister as that she would hurt ran with changing kudos heart... thats my conclusion at least

I agree, and I thought that this was one of the best things about DC.  In soooooooo many stories if there is a boy and a girl the relationship has to be either a) romantic or b) brother-sister.  I mean, are those REALLY the only two relationships possible?!?  
Also, because if you look at the whole series, Shinichi does some serious growing.  At the start he's arrogant, thoughtless and a bit of a loner.  I mean, we only ever see him with Ran.  When he comes back in the Desperate Revival arc, no one comes up to him and says, "Oh, I was so worried about you!" or "Where have you been?!?" or "Dude, way to skip school.  Take me with you next time!" or any of the tons of stuff normal friends would say.  But he really only has fans.  
Enter Heiji, who's determined to be friends with him.  It sorta takes awhile before Shinchi gives him all the respect he deserves, but now they're good friends.  They respect each other and look out for each other.
I see Haibara like this too.  Sure, they pick at each other a lot, but at the end of the day, they're friends.  

There are definite undertones from Gosho playing into the AiCon. My guess however is that his intention was to make it one-sided, having Haibara fall in love with Conan while he is focuses soles on Ran (Haibara -> Conan -> Ran Shinichi in a sense). Then he felt like it was getting to misconstrued and attempted to clean it up. Gosho may have an ending in mind, but he is constantly making up how to get there and things will change from their original intention.

As for Ran sensing that he wasn't really Shinichi in that ep, I have no problem with it. Everything from how a person holds themselves, their mannerisms, their presence--how they fill the space they are in,  how they move and how they stay still. Very minute things make up who that person is, an aura can be virtually tangible when you know someone really well and you can sense when something is off. Heck, his pheromones are different, and considering she had grown up since childhood with Shinichi, she'll have an unconscious impression of him. So while she recognizes his face as Shinichi, she has a feeling based on that myriad of factors that something is wrong that isn't the amnesia.

As far as the pheromones thing, could easily be why she gets so attached to Conan as her gut recognizes him as familiar though her mind (typically) doesn't. Studies have shown guys somehow tend to have a sense of when women are ovulating and are attracted to it. If that isn't telling on how basic we can get when sensing others, don't know what is.

I completely agree.  I think it was one-sided for a while, but that's faded now.  Shiho probably realized that looking after a jinxed boy is NOT what she had in mind for the rest of her life.  :D
And Ran realizing he's not Shinichi--in addition to what you said she's had these instincts before.  The whole Jodie/Vermouth thing, for example.  She recognizes when something's not right, even if she can't spell out why.

[toyks]

@toyks: spoiler box pl0x

I forgot to use the spoiler tags...again? Dang! I'm so sorry about that

@psyko: I believe people are quite aware ShinRan ending for the story is absolute/inevitable. No need to categorize people as delusional

DC a shounen manga, and what do shounen mangas have in common? Headstrong - both in beliefs and in love - main characters/protagonists. Shinichi is no exception. He is a smart, handsome, courageous shounen manga character who has headstrong/unfaltering dedication to his first love. Thus, the inevitable ShinRan ending *sigh*. I'm not saying Shinichi lacks character development - which is another characteristic for some shounen heroes. I'm just saying he has one characteristic that almost all shonen heroes have - being headstrong

In the earlier chapters after Ai's introduction, there are subtle one-sided AiCon hints. Now don't get me wrong, no one ever said that Ai was a certain love interest. But certainly, Gosho initially planned something. I don't know, maybe uhhm throwing in a character that could add more drama (than the usual 'i won't leave ran') in the story ? For some reason, Gosho decided to scrap this potential drama. Maybe he lost interest in the idea or didn't know how to execute the plan without the story leaning more towards the then new character that is Ai Haibara. A new character that is (1) a member of the notorious organization and (2) creator of the drug that change our shounen hero's fate. The organization and the drug - both are responsible for a huge chunk of the plot (other chunk = ShinRan love story). Now, what would happen if Gosho accidentally gives too much focus on the new character whose foundation for her character background are (1) & (2)? We don't want things to get out of hand and turn the manga's title into "Detective Ai" now, do we? Gosho, I think it is time to give us some again Ai-fix that is plot related. Not just those scenes wherein Ai throws-in a side-comment .

Ok, back to the (imo, *not-so-triangle ) love triangle possibility (again, NOT the AiCon ending certainty) in the earlier chapters. A character that can give boost to the story only needs to have characteristic (1) and (2), right? IMO, it would be more sensible if the creator of the potent/miracle (depending on the effect) drug would be someone who is older than our shounen hero. Just having new recurring/supporting character that has characteristic 1 & 2 is enough to move forward with the story's plot. Now, why throw-in a character with characteristic 1 & 2 and is in the same age group as Shinichi? Again, back to Gosho's possible initial plan with Ai - he wants more drama. What better and easier way to add more drama than try to insert a good ol' love triangle recipe, right? New character with characteristic 1 & 2 plus in the same age group = a character that could complete the big bad triangle.

note: *not-so-triangle because i think most love-triangles should be called 'slash and a period'. Seeing that most of the time, no one is even interested (as a love interest anyway) in the third character. (/) - the 2 with undying love for each other. (.) - the lone one.

Meh, whatever! Ai doesn't need a man. She is awesome the way she is now

[ziraulo]

Meh, whatever! Ai doesn't need a man. She is awesome the way she is now

Amen! ^^ Ai-san's part of the "I don't need a man till I'm about 20-something" Club!!!! XD


...And why do you guys like harem stuff too much? I hate that stuff.

[sonoci]

I have to agree with most (maybe even all) of kkslider's first post.

The case was good and handled well. Heck, I even knew the outcome of the 'Shirigami' from the very start (skimming through files randomly and accidentally saw the end) but it still kept my interest. I could see all of the hints and build-ups that would've surprised me and I respected the layout. ...And of course the...'animation' if you can call it that after.

While I was watching, though, like kkslider Ran bugged me. I mean, I knew that 'Shirigami' was Shinichi because I saw the end first. I have a logical reason. Ran...not really. The point was brought up that she's been friends with him for a long time and the pheromone/something thing, but technically Ran hasn't actually seen Shinichi for a long time. She's seen Conan, yeah I know, but not Shinichi. Combined with amnesia and the overall scenario (being in a town that hates him) I'd think that it'd be normal to think that Shinichi could be acting strange. But...no. She just knows off the bat. The 'sense' doesn't actually hold either now that I think about it: in Desperate Revival how did she not 'sense' that Haibara wasn't Conan/Shinichi or that the knight was actually him? The Jodie/Vermouth thing made sense: she didn’t have suspicions until after she saw the pictures. To me that’s enough justification. I mean…that’s kind of weird. Shinichi with amnesia not seeming like Shinichi? …That’s because of the amnesia *head bang*

Some could say that from a non-pairing view it was to give 'hints' of Shirigami being Shinichi but there were other ways to do this. Not to mention kkslider's point on how the romance was a (maybe even THE) plot for the first 127 episodes. Even if it isn't the main one anymore, there should still be some drama. To me, the very fact that it is set in stone, determined, ultimately decided by the Gods, xineh on other pathseh that ShinRan is going to be the pairing is completely and utterly boring. I understand when there’s obvious, but there is such a thing as too obvious. IMO when it comes down to it, I could care less how they get together when I know they will. There's no questions at all other than the bare minimums: how will they get together, when will they, what will happen after? Seeing as the last one usually isn’t touched on in fiction as ‘the chase’ is most fun, that leaves the two bare minimum questions. Of course, this is where opinion comes in. Some people may think the two questions are enough. Me? ...no. Questions are the building blocks of good stories, especially mysteries. That’s why I love DC. The romance now, not so much.

For AiCon it may not have been a logical option from the start, but the implications and facts that Gosho did, himself, put them in there was a hope for people like me. Now, I'm not exactly an AiCon myself, but it made the romance plot interesting because there was actually 'competition'. Gosho has done surprising things in many cases: AiCons may have seen the hints as one of his possible turn twists. Or, y'know, they just find it cute and support it not because they think it will happen but because they think it's cute. People can use their imaginations, you know. They could also be like me: want there to be some form of drama in the romance plot.

I think the most frustrating part is that Gosho dropped the 'triangle' because he was scared. Or, as kkslider mentioned, didn't think of what to do next. If it were me, I would've made Ran and Shinichi completely break up/have a huge fight/something and then went from there. It would've been so complicated what with Conan living at Ran's house. That would've been dramatic: there would've been a higher chance of AiCon (not assured, but for drama at the least), still a chance for ShinRan (living with Ran, Conan would have the time to hear her side/reflect), development of Conan/Ran/pretty much anyone (“Something’s wrong with Conan, let’s try to cheer him up *develop somehow*â€

[1Kaito]

Let's be honest, he didn't just drop the love triangle idea. He dropped Haibara as a character. I mean look at her now and look at her Pre-Episode 345. He gave up on her a long time ago for some unknown reason like he is totally oblivious to the fact that she is easily one of the top 3 best characters in this manga.

Well either he didn't know or he is just....pure evil....pure evil

[kkslider5552000]

@Sonoci: You've got it. Completely. That was exactly my point.

Now, it is possible to save this story. They're at least not COMPLETELY ignoring Ran and Haibara like they were doing for post-Vermouth. Haibara is clearly gonna have a major role in the conclusion of the Bourbon arc and we are getting a bit more ShinRan cases. Now, if Haibara is dragged more into BO stuff again, that means Conan will be there too, since he's the main character. And considering there have been a couple hints of another Ran suspicion arc happening, what I hope is that they'll have Ran fully investigate Conan to prove he's Shinichi (which is the best way for her to find out) during the time Haibara and Conan are involved with whatever the next arc will be (hopefully not a 2-3 year long arc again though). They can alternate between these two stories for a while. Then at the end of that Ran confronts him, he no longer has any choice, Ran finds out, which means she has to find out about Haibara too I would guess. And there's a lot you can do from there, from Ran's reactions to the entire situation, to knowing what Sleeping Kogoro is really about, conversations with Ai. It'll be great, I'll make popcorn.

[randompi314159]

I too have to agree with a lot of the posts.  I also ended up accidently watching part 2 of the case as well as the next episode before watching the first half of that case while on a video site. And I got really excited. Also would explain my not-noticing the " poor animation" in which that case seems to have (except in 523, things do look off when i look at it now). Case-wise, the concept was unique. I thought it was only a matter of time before Gosho made it look like Shinichi, the main protagonist, the culprit of case. And the whole plastic surgery bit was something I didn't really expect either, but in this instance it worked. It certainly held my interest and stands out amongst the 'newer' episodes.

As for the whole Ran detecting thing, I didn't really have any qualms with it. Depending on what type of amnesia 'Shinichi' claimed to have had, 'Shinichi's' memories of things like cases would be blocked, yet 'his' personality traits could still remain in tact. But since he could have shown traits in which Ran was not used to, she unconsciously picked up suspicion of 'his' identity. And yes, I am aware that Shinichi could've changed since he disappeared, but some of his traits, his temperament, should remain consistent throughout time. She only discussed her doubts with Kazuha, but she just seemed to naturally avoid "him" during the bulk of that case. And about the Shinichi's return in Desperate Revival, as the Black Knight or whatever his char was called, he didn't really have the chance to act or behave like himself. He was acting in the character of the Black Knight and didn't say anything until he started his deduction show. Whereas in this case, "Shinichi" had opportunities to act and speak in a semi-regular situation. And as for the Conan thing in the Desperate Revival, uh, she was so ecstatic to see Shinichi again? She did pick up that Conan was 'acting' weird during the time of Shinichi's return though.

And as for the love triangle between Shinichi-Ran-Shiho, despite not initially being too fond of it, I'll agree that it could've added some depth and growth between Shinichi and Ran's relationship, while at the same time giving some fans more shipping options that they prefer. The fact that there was possible competition would've shaken up the whole normalcy that appeared set in stone. But with Gosho just dropping it, I can understand how it'd be frustrating for others and a huge miss on a different-type of development.

[Sherry86]

I'm not agree if someone said that Ai admire or respect Conan because she seems enjoying herself when she making fun of Conan. I think "Ai have a crush for Conan" is more suitable.

I think in Shirigami-sama case, Ran behavior make no sense at all. Maybe Gosho try to show that ShinRan love is very fantastic but what I see is Ran just want the Shinichi she knew. If Shinichi change, she doesn't want him anymore.

Spoiler:

London case have some plot hole. I think Gosho run out of idea to make ShinRan romance.

I think Shiho love her research more than man, that's why her sister told her to find a boyfriend. She doesn't need man to exist but I don't want she stay single forever.

[Schillok]

I still think that there was no "Haibara x Conan" - at least not in a romantic sense - in the first place. Which is why the people supporting it are disappointed once Gosho was finished showing their interactions. Those people expected more - but there was nothing more. They interact because they are in the same situation, because they can talk with each other about the BO and the APTX without further endangering each other. And even then both sides hold back information.

Sure, Ran x Shinichi did not/hardly develop any further since a lot of chapters. However, the reason for that is simple: They are already at the maximum they could reach in their situation. Ran had already confessed (to Conan) that she loves Shinichi, Shinichi has almost/indirectly confessed to her as well. They are ready to become a couple, however since they can't be together with each other (because Shinichi is Conan now and keeping it a secret) their relationship is unable to progress.
Which is probably why most readers have accepted that the series will end with Ran x Shinichi. It is already prepared, all that is missing is the antidote.

[Abs.]

Both sides are missing the point. Where Conan and Haibara are at now is practically the "they're married" level, or as close as Aoyama can write such a relationship. The ShinRan at the end could only hope to come close to such a level.

[Sherry86]

Both sides are missing the point. Where Conan and Haibara are at now is practically the "they're married" level, or as close as Aoyama can write such a relationship. The ShinRan at the end could only hope to come close to such a level.

You have a point, but "the husband" keep looking for another woman so "the wife" start to give up on "their marriage" and preparing "divorce paper".