Did Gosho violated...

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Laurell
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Did Gosho violated...

Postby Laurell » January 2nd, 2011, 5:30 pm

I was reading the rules in writing mysteries and I found some rules that was violated in the DC World. DC is an anime and manga, so I disregard those rules. But since the main genre of DC is mystery, it bothers me.

Here are the links:
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/genr ... yrules.htm
http://www.mysteryinkonline.com/2005/01 ... es_fo.html

You will notice that on those rules, these were stated:
Don't use improbable disguises... (Against Yukiko, Vermouth and KID)
The detective should not have a love interest. (ShinRan)
Neither the detective nor one of the official investigators can turn out to be the criminal. (A police officer became a criminal.)
No secret societies ("mafias, et al"). The murderer, too, needs a sporting chance to outwit the detective. (Of course, the Black Org)

What do you think? Did Gosho really...
ProfParanoia
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby ProfParanoia » January 2nd, 2011, 5:45 pm

That's just listing devices that are overused.
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Akonyl
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Akonyl » January 2nd, 2011, 6:07 pm

Keep in mind that these rules are pretty much the rules to writing straightforward, "serious" mysteries, by the looks of them. So, you shouldn't have a love interest for the detective because you're writing a mystery, and a love subplot would detract from that. Gosho stated that this was a Mystery/Romance series I believe at some point (or so I hear), so this isn't really an issue.

The better rule to follow for the most part is "play by whatever rules you want, but they must be introduced at the beginning, or well before they actually matter". Conan has a secret organization, yes, but it was brought up in the first episode or two, so they were central to the plot. If the show went on for 200 episodes with zero mention of them, and then Conan thought "wait a second, they must be an evil organization!" then it'd break the rules a bit more.

The same goes with the case of Vermouth's improbable disguise ability in the plot leading up to 345: before that ever became an issue, KID had been long-since introduced to the storyline, letting us know that the crazy disguises were in fact possible. We also were sort of prepped to believe things this crazy would happen when we learned that high schoolers could turn into elementary schoolers, anyway.

Bottom line: You can put anything you want in your mysteries, including aliens. Just don't wait until the last chapter to mention the aliens, as they beam down and explain away everything. :P
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Tanner-kun » January 2nd, 2011, 6:35 pm

I loled at this part

e) Learning that the culprit was familiar because the dog didn't bark.


Episode 2.  :-X
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby CTU » January 2nd, 2011, 6:44 pm

Xcommando wrote:I loled at this part

e) Learning that the culprit was familiar because the dog didn't bark.


Episode 2.  :-X


Also

j) Having the solution in a coded message that takes the detective until the end of book to figure out.


how many times has this happened? :P
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Jd- » January 2nd, 2011, 6:48 pm

He's guilty of being at odds with a few of the Golden Age "rules" (there were countless such lists at the time, as mystery literature was booming at the time), but it's not like he's a rebel without a cause here. Christie defied all conventions throughout her career for the sake of inventive and original storytelling. Gosho isn't nearly as innovative, but he's at no more fault than virtually all other contemporary mystery writers.

To throw out a bit of perspective, one of the earliest lists of any real consideration was Ronald Knox's Decalogue (which was meant to be a little tongue in cheek, but also a criticism of the lower echelon of mysteries out there that were essentially "cheating" readers):

1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.
2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective must not himself commit the crime.
8. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader.
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.


Of course, this was written many years ago and is pretty reflective of the times (I still laugh at #5). It was first published in 1929, which gives you a better sense of the literary deceits that were being utilized at the time.

As far as I'm concerned, Gosho's only real, serious problem with concern to the lists you posted is the disguises. Yes, he's established that ridiculous disguises are commonplace in his work on more than one occasion, but the point that many look over is that it doesn't excuse the fact that it is unremarkable writing. Citing other unscientific/implausible events hardly justifies their inclusion--it more gives us reason to not consider it a thoroughly expert mystery series in some respects. Mystery scholars would no doubt scoff at some of the madness that goes on in Conan, and I'm right there with them when it comes to the disguises.

Even so, he's not really adhering to many rules here considering many of the ones he has broken end up as reversioned plots that Christie herself invented. Many, many mystery series (and non-mystery ones, really) have taken elements from Christie's bibliography and used them as their own (such is her influence). Gosho's work is no different there.

Xcommando wrote:I loled at this part

e) Learning that the culprit was familiar because the dog didn't bark.


Episode 2.  :-X


This also wasn't Gosho's own invention, you know. :P
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby ProfParanoia » January 2nd, 2011, 7:25 pm

5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.

Those stories did always make me feel cheated.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Freyr » January 2nd, 2011, 8:13 pm

Akonyl wrote: crazy would happen when we learned that high schoolers could turn into elementary schoolers, anyway.


QFE.

From the first file, fantasy and suspension of disbelief is established. If the viewer doesn't buy the APTX and shrinking detective, the whole show is a moot point. "Magic" and disguises are blown out of proportion from the get go. But to be fair, kid is the only one with the hyper fake disguises with his layers upon layers and full kid clothes hidden under plains clothes. Silicon face masks are pretty doable---particularly for a highly advanced secret organization that can develop a apotosis drug.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Jd- » January 2nd, 2011, 8:57 pm

Freyr wrote:From the first file, fantasy and suspension of disbelief is established. If the viewer doesn't buy the APTX and shrinking detective, the whole show is a moot point. "Magic" and disguises are blown out of proportion from the get go. But to be fair, kid is the only one with the hyper fake disguises with his layers upon layers and full kid clothes hidden under plains clothes. Silicon face masks are pretty doable---particularly for a highly advanced secret organization that can develop a apotosis drug.


I'll answer this below in reply to the original passage (at least as far as the disguises are concerned):

Akonyl wrote:The same goes with the case of Vermouth's improbable disguise ability in the plot leading up to 345: before that ever became an issue, KID had been long-since introduced to the storyline, letting us know that the crazy disguises were in fact possible. We also were sort of prepped to believe things this crazy would happen when we learned that high schoolers could turn into elementary schoolers, anyway.


This isn't really a valid answer to that specific criticism, to be honest. I don't mean that what you have said is invalid, but more that it only covers the existence of the occasionally implausible disguises--not their superabundance.

Most fans that criticize the rampant disguises are not questioning that it is a trait of Kid's or that it was introduced (somewhat) early in the series--instead, they are questioning the frequency in which it plays a part in other plots in the series. If it had remained unique to Kid and were used solely in his stories, it would have been a given that that was a trait of his that he somehow was able to pull off. By writing in disguises at every turn in non-Kid cases just because it's more convenient than developing a more original or engaging plot, it serves only to undermine the quality of those stories. As a result of how frequent the disguises have become, Kid has become a sideshow. The many masters of disguise have undermined his own character--his expert ability to disguise is clearly not unique in the least, making him just another character instead of the exciting one he used to be.

To put it in fewer words: Gosho is free to do what he wishes, but his work is far from being above criticism (much to the chagrin of some). As I posted above, just because it can be explained away does not validate it as anything but lackluster and predictable plotting.
Last edited by Jd- on January 3rd, 2011, 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby kkslider5552000 » January 2nd, 2011, 11:51 pm

Jd- wrote:long post

no, no, the plot holes in the Kirin's Horn case and the use of little mystery except "OMG DISGUISE" in the Iron Tanuki case has hurt Kid far more, I assure you.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby dilbertschalter » January 3rd, 2011, 2:26 am

Disguises are frustrating often not because they are unrealistic, but because their use makes you feel like the author is "cheating". It quite annoying when you look carefully for the solution and the actual resolution involves a disguise, unless the plot is setup in a way that makes unmasking the disguise interesting.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby Misztina » January 3rd, 2011, 3:55 am

Mind you, that Detective Conan is not a purely mystery series, Gosho said its genre is rather "mystery-touch", so I don't think that the "saint" rules of the mystery genre apply to it every single time.
Rules are meant to be extended, broke and rewritten, so I do not have problem with anything, until it becomes too much out of the box.

I can accept that there are people with perfect disguises, I think it is still easier to swallow than how a kid can turn back to an adult.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby User 4869 » January 3rd, 2011, 4:52 am

I still fine with disguise. When Vermouth show up. we know she capable of disguise as a man. When person suspect of disguise show up. They recive a kick on thier face or duct tape on their mount. we know disguise can apply to those unable to disguise themselves (Heiji). So we know Vermouth can apply it to Bourbon other BO as well. I'm perfectly fine with that.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby scineram » January 3rd, 2011, 7:49 am

Apotoxin is not much of a problem because it was introduced at the beginning, and it is strictly confined to one particular part of the story. The required suspension of disbelief can therefore be restricted, not upsetting the rest of series.

But as Jd said disguises became a common, trivial device that can be pulled off anytime when convenient. The worst is that it undermines the rest of the series, any case could have a different resolution assuming someone used disguise. So even if less unrealistic, it is its usage the makes it a problem.
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Re: Did Gosho violated...

Postby takiko » January 3rd, 2011, 7:53 am

Laurell wrote:You will notice that on those rules, these were stated:
Do[s]n't[/s] use improbable disguises... (Against Yukiko, Vermouth and KID)
The detective should [s]not[/s] have a love interest. (ShinRan)
[s]Neither the detective nor[/s] one of the official investigators can turn out to be the criminal. (A police officer became a criminal.)
No secret societies ("mafias, et al"). The murderer, too, needs a sporting chance to outwit the detective. (Of course, the Black Org)


Without those, DC is not DC.

Laurell wrote:the detective can turn out to be the criminal.


This sounds good.
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