Ai + Conan

[Callid]

Uhm...
You're drifting off, aren't you?
Anyway, I won't participate in your discussion further (because mangaluva etc. say all the things I want to say) but I have to admit that Schillok's arguments have lost their prior sharpness and undoubted logic.

[Schillok]

Uhm...
You're drifting off, aren't you?
Anyway, I won't participate in your discussion further (because mangaluva etc. say all the things I want to say) but I have to admit that Schillok's arguments have lost their prior sharpness and undoubted logic.

Err... yeah. Okay, this was probably a bit off-topic.
But I still doubt that woman can "pick up if another woman is in love with someone" just by looking at her. Especially if they have never met before.  

Spoiler:

What I am trying to say is that: You have to be critical about what Yukiko said. Just following the logic "There is noting on Conans face so Haibara must love him because Yukiko said so!" is dangerous. Maybe she was serious - and Conan just ignored it and Yukiko never talked about again or forgot about it. But it just as like possible that she wasn't serious or just seeing things she wanted to see.

[Girl19]

Well, as I said, this was the first time Yukiko meeting Ai (And I doubt the talked directly to each other during that time except for a short, polite exchange). If she can read Haibara that quickly... then she is extremly talented and should rethink about her profession.
--------
Beside, in that case a woman would be able to tell if her best friend was in love with her own boyfriend. Or if the neighbours woman that has an affair with her husband.
So why are so many woman supprised by their cheating boyfriends/husbands when they previously knew the other woman?

There are 2 types of women: the naive ones, and the others.
- The women who are really surprised are the naive ones, only.
- A woman who can sense those stuff just by observing someone's behavior will not get surprised. On the contrary, she will be the first one to realize that her husband/boyfriend is cheating on her (and would even sense with whom, in case he's cheating on her with someone she already knows or has already seen, for instance: her "best" friend, neighbor, etc.). Moreover, sometimes a woman can sense that her man is willing to cheat on her even before he does; because she notices those subtle details about him which keep on changing gradually.

To be back on topic (since we're not discussing about cheated women here), Yukiko belongs to the second category. She is insightful, perceptive, intuitive and very observant. She had enough time to observe Haibara and notice that she has a thing for Conan.

Yeah. And I made up this extreme reasoning because I wanted to show Yukikos extreme reasoning. Either Conan has something on his face or Haibara is in love with him. Her statement didn't leave room for anything in between. 

Yukiko's reasoning wasn't extreme. Yours was. I'll explain why I think so:
- You said that you can either love or hate someone, which is wrong because there is a difference between "adore", "love", "like", "dislike", "hate", and so on. Your reasoning was like saying that there is only "black" or "white", and denying the existence of all the other colors.
- What Yukiko said was less extreme; it was a way to bring Conan's attention on what was going on around him. It was like the "If you see a woman fixing her lipstick, it either means that she was eating or that she was kissing." reasoning. Of course a woman could be fixing her lipstick for another reason, and Haibara could be staring at Conan for another reason; but would she stare at him over and over again for another reason? I'm wondering, what reason could it be? Besides, why would Conan show hesitation and take a considerable time before daring to ask Haibara if there was something on his face, avoiding the "Do you love me?" question? This only shows that he considered Yukiko's remark and realized that she may be right. If she was just joking, he would realize that (because he's smart enough) and wouldn't even ask Haibara anything.

Yukiko was desperate enough to play a criminal the first time she meet Conan. She seriously scared him. Not to mention Anime Originals... (Like when she dressed as an old woman and rented a house close to the agency just to spy on Conan.)
No, inventing a dumb little love story sounds EXACTLY like something she would do.
*shrug* I think that makes her funny. Of course you are free to feel different about that trait of charcter.

1. AO's usually take something which only happened once in the manga and make it re-happen several times, thus creating a confusion, so people start thinking that a character is very "this" or too "that", as if it has always happened, while it actually only happened once or twice.
2. Yes, Yukiko was desperate to MEET her child after not seeing him nor hearing from him for a long time, and she was worried because she knew he had shrunk because of a drug which was given to him by a criminal working in a secret organisation. I actually understand why she was desperate. But what I can't understand is why would she be that desperate to just TEASE her son and make a stupid joke, playing with people's feelings. That's ridiculous!

What I am trying to say is that: You have to be critical about what Yukiko said. Just following the logic "There is noting on Conans face so Haibara must love him because Yukiko said so!" is dangerous. Maybe she was serious - and Conan just ignored it and Yukiko never talked about again or forgot about it. But it just as like possible that she wasn't serious or just seeing things she wanted to see.

1. Finally, you did admit that there actually is a logic in there!
2. I agree, following something blindly can be dangerous. But who said I am following Yukiko's reasoning blindly? Are you trying to tell me that you somehow forgot what I said in all my previous posts, in which I clearly explained and gave a lot of examples of why I think that Ai has feelings for Conan?! I remind you that I only brought Yukiko's statement here because I needed an example to prove my point of view, not because it is my point of view. By the way, I also gave examples of Ayumi and Mitsuhiko who also noticed that. And I gave a plenty of other examples which clearly show that Ai has feelings for Conan; NOT because someone said so, but because I noticed that (and I'm not the only one).
3. I don't have to be critical when I, myself, agree with a statement. I only discuss about something when I don't agree with it. And if the opposite arguments convince me, I admit it and move on to something else. I don't pretend that I'm not convinced and say illogical things just to make my opinion prevail, because I'm not headstrong.

[soratothamax]

And I say:
>>> Err.. that's the point? I was following Schillok's extremist reasoning on purpose to prove that.. err.. it is extremist.

Yeah. And I made up this extreme reasoning because I wanted to show Yukikos extreme reasoning. Either Conan has something on his face or Haibara is in love with him. Her statement didn't leave room for anything in between. 

. She saw that Ai might have a little thing for Conan; she spotted the little body language cues.

Well, as I said, this was the first time Yukiko meeting Ai (And I doubt the talked directly to each other during that time except for a short, polite exchange). If she can read Haibara that quickly... then she is extremly talented and should rethink about her profession.
But doesn't it sound much more likely that she just thought she spotted these "cues" because she WANTED to see them? (Or made it completly up.)

I don't think Yukiko is that desperate to invent a whole dumb little love story just to tease her Shin-chan.

Yukiko was desperate enough to play a criminal the first time she meet Conan. She seriously scared him. Not to mention Anime Originals... (Like when she dressed as an old woman and rented a house close to the agency just to spy on Conan.)
No, inventing a dumb little love story sounds EXACTLY like something she would do.
*shrug* I think that makes her funny. Of course you are free to feel different about that trait of charcter.


What I am trying to say is that: You have to be critical about what Yukiko said. Just following the logic "There is noting on Conans face so Haibara must love him because Yukiko said so!" is dangerous. Maybe she was serious - and Conan just ignored it and Yukiko never talked about again or forgot about it. But it just as like possible that she wasn't serious or just seeing things she wanted to see.

I can't see the point of mentioning it if it wasn't something that was meant to come up at some point in the story. So whether or not Yukiko said anything about it, or was telling the truth, it was brought up by somebody, and it was brought out of the light. There is no one to argue that there isn't SPECULATION that Haibara may have feelings for Conan. I mean, why would the episode even mention it if a bit of that hint or idea wasn't meant to be thrown out there?

Besides, I always look at Yukiko as someone who is very clever and intuitive, even if she appears guilty. She likes to tease Conan, true, but usually the teasing is to bring out the REAL Shinichi and make Shinichi more aware of his surroundings.

[soratothamax]

Think of the classic situation where a couple walk into a party and the woman can give a rundown of the relationships of everyone in the room, even the ones she's never met, in about ten seconds, leaving the man dumbfounded. Has that never happened to you?

No, never happened to me. And sounds extremely unrealistic.
Beside, in that case a woman would be able to tell if her best friend was in love with her own boyfriend. Or if the neighbours woman that has an affair with her husband.
So why are so many woman supprised by their cheating boyfriends/husbands when they previously knew the other woman?

Haibara is no little child, she can hide her feelings well. Well enough not to be read within a few minutes by a completly stranger woman like Conans mother.

As for WHY she would want to think Haibara was in love... Well, maybe she thought "It would be cute if she were" or "My son is such a cute boy, I bet many girls fall for him".
There are many reasons why a parent might want to think a girl fell in love with his/her son.

It's almost as unrealistic as Ran and Shinichi's relationship....I couldn't help that.  It slipped.

I think with careful observation, especially from Shinichi's intuitive mother, she could've figured that Haibara liked him a lot. In what way, she didn't decipher. But we don't know how long they've been driving in the car before she realized anything or began observing Haibara.

I mean, just from observing Haibara's demeanor myself in the first episode, I was able to decipher that she was sarcastic and funny. Just from little observations, I got the same conclusion from the castle episode.

Most women really aren't that surprised by their man cheating. Women are far more intuitive than that. Most of the problems that women have with their man, they purposely ignore to keep from the pain. But they know when their man is leaving.

Anyone can observe someone for a while and come to a conclusion. Shinichi's mom also has observations about other people. Do you think her observations about them are incorrect? I think basically, though Yukiko APPEARS goofy, to delude her son, she is really more intuitive, like most mothers, than Shinichi thinks.

[Schillok]

There is no one to argue that there isn't SPECULATION that Haibara may have feelings for Conan.

I think everyone in this thread should see that there is speculation about Haibara having feelings for Conan among fans.  ;D

and Haibara could be staring at Conan for another reason; but would she stare at him over and over again for another reason? I'm wondering, what reason could it be? Besides, why would Conan show hesitation and take a considerable time before daring to ask Haibara if there was something on his face, avoiding the "Do you love me?" question? This only shows that he considered Yukiko's remark and realized that she may be right. If she was just joking, he would realize that (because he's smart enough) and wouldn't even ask Haibara anything.

The translation that I read only said "looking", not staring. And there are hundrets of reasons to look at someone.
Well, and the question is did Conan "avoid the do you love me question". as you put it? Or did he completly disregard it because he thinks/knows that Haibara has no feelings for him? I know, Shinichi is pretty dense about love-stuff, but shouldn't he be the person knowing Haibara second-best (after Agasa)?
I think he did that, eliminating the "love" possebility immedeatly - which only kept him wondering why his mother would say something like that. Which lead him to ask the "something on my face"-question.
I guess when he saw Haibaras reaction he came to the same conclusion as I did - his mother was either teasing him or seeing things wrong.

Or maybe we are seeing to much in it. And it was really just a joke in the first place and not to be taken seriously.  :P

1. AO's usually take something which only happened once in the manga and make it re-happen several times, thus creating a confusion, so people start thinking that a character is very "this" or too "that", as if it has always happened, while it actually only happened once or twice.
2. Yes, Yukiko was desperate to MEET her child after not seeing him nor hearing from him for a long time, and she was worried because she knew he had shrunk because of a drug which was given to him by a criminal working in a secret organisation. I actually understand why she was desperate. But what I can't understand is why would she be that desperate to just TEASE her son and make a stupid joke, playing with people's feelings. That's ridiculous!

Well, yes it is hard to judge Yukikos character from the few appearances she had. Which doesn't mean she couldn't be exactly like characterized in the AOs.
With whose feelings was she playing? With Conan who didn't take her "Ai-loves-you" serious anyway? Or the "readers feelings" who are on a completly different level?
You might think it was no joke. Or a stupid joke. I think it was a joke, a funny joke (The complete scene including Conans question I mean).

By the way, I also gave examples of Ayumi and Mitsuhiko who also noticed that.

Sorry, must have missed those examples. Can you repeat them again?
Because these two are probably much more able to judge Haibara than Yukiko, since they interact with her daily.

[soratothamax]

I have a question, when you talk about CHEMISTRY in english, doesn't that mean something about mutual love?
If not well, my other meassage (on the other thread) would be a little wrong from what I truly mean. o__O

TBH, I've always understood that chemistry is more of a sexual compatibility; I think to have chemistry you need to have mutual feelings. That's why I don't see chemistry; I see romantic feelings from Ai, but without any from Conan, I don't see chemistry.

First off, there can be chemistry between people who are not lovers, but friends, and partners. That means they look good with one another. Some people look better together as friends, then the people who call themselves lovers. That's why I like Ai and Shinichi's "friendship", more than Ran and Shinichi's "love." It's just...obvious and not interesting. They don't have on-screen chemistry, like you can see one without the other. I can see Ran without Shinichi. I can't see Haibara without Conan. EXAMPLE: Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan from Rush Hour have on-screen chemistry. They aren't lovers, but they have something that makes the audience like them more when they're together than when they're alone.

There's also something when it comes to television called "on-screen chemistry" that means that two people make a great team, look good together, charms the audience when they are together, seem to understand one another, etc. "on-screen chemistry" is not about love. Two people can love each other in a movie or show, and not have any on-screen chemistry.

Most people just like Ran because they feel sorry for her.  ::)

[Schillok]

Most people just like Ran because they feel sorry for her. 

Which is a completly valid reasone to like any character, don't you think? Beside... I doubt most people do like her because of that reason. Ran has a lot of good sides too.

Well, you can call Shinichi x Ran obvious and boring. And I agree to that opinion. But that doesn't mean others can't find it interesting and romantic. Depends on your own preferences.

Let's put all these different definitions of "good chemistry" asside. I think we can agree that Ais and Conans interaction is "interesting". Whatever interesting means for you.

[soratothamax]

There is no one to argue that there isn't SPECULATION that Haibara may have feelings for Conan.

I think everyone in this thread should see that there is speculation about Haibara having feelings for Conan among fans.  ;D

and Haibara could be staring at Conan for another reason; but would she stare at him over and over again for another reason? I'm wondering, what reason could it be? Besides, why would Conan show hesitation and take a considerable time before daring to ask Haibara if there was something on his face, avoiding the "Do you love me?" question? This only shows that he considered Yukiko's remark and realized that she may be right. If she was just joking, he would realize that (because he's smart enough) and wouldn't even ask Haibara anything.

The translation that I read only said "looking", not staring. And there are hundrets of reasons to look at someone.
Well, and the question is did Conan "avoid the do you love me question". as you put it? Or did he completly disregard it because he thinks/knows that Haibara has no feelings for him? I know, Shinichi is pretty dense about love-stuff, but shouldn't he be the person knowing Haibara second-best (after Agasa)?
I think he did that, eliminating the "love" possebility immedeatly - which only kept him wondering why his mother would say something like that. Which lead him to ask the "something on my face"-question.
I guess when he saw Haibaras reaction he came to the same conclusion as I did - his mother was either teasing him or seeing things wrong.

Or maybe we are seeing to much in it. And it was really just a joke in the first place and not to be taken seriously.  :P

1. AO's usually take something which only happened once in the manga and make it re-happen several times, thus creating a confusion, so people start thinking that a character is very "this" or too "that", as if it has always happened, while it actually only happened once or twice.
2. Yes, Yukiko was desperate to MEET her child after not seeing him nor hearing from him for a long time, and she was worried because she knew he had shrunk because of a drug which was given to him by a criminal working in a secret organisation. I actually understand why she was desperate. But what I can't understand is why would she be that desperate to just TEASE her son and make a stupid joke, playing with people's feelings. That's ridiculous!

Well, yes it is hard to judge Yukikos character from the few appearances she had. Which doesn't mean she couldn't be exactly like characterized in the AOs.
With whose feelings was she playing? With Conan who didn't take her "Ai-loves-you" serious anyway? Or the "readers feelings" who are on a completly different level?
You might think it was no joke. Or a stupid joke. I think it was a joke, a funny joke (The complete scene including Conans question I mean).

By the way, I also gave examples of Ayumi and Mitsuhiko who also noticed that.

Sorry, must have missed those examples. Can you repeat them again?
Because these two are probably much more able to judge Haibara than Yukiko, since they interact with her daily.

Well, yea, if there are people who are getting those vibes, then something is there. If the episode brought it up, and the manga, why was it put there? Do you think Gosho put it there for his health? I think Conan avoided the idea tat she loved him because he was afraid. If he got the truth, that would put him in an awkward position because he said he loved Ran. And when you find out someone you never thought loved you, might possibly love you, it's hard to bring it to the person's attention. He also thinks Haibara is too tough to be "a person in love" which he has said before.

That wasn't the only hint thrown out by Gosho there that there is meant to be something. Remember the episode where the Detective Boys were making a movie. But before we knew that, Haibara was saying "Don't you know she loves you? You really don't know women at all. Don't you see? I love you." And everyone went OMG (added emphasis), but then we found out it was just a movie they were making? Why would Gosho put those two individuals in that situation, without telling us it was a movie beforehand, and having Haibara say those exact words? It was put there for a reason.

[soratothamax]

Most people just like Ran because they feel sorry for her.   ::)

Which is a completly valid reasone to like any character, don't you think? Beside... I doubt most people do like her because of that reason. Ran has a lot of good sides too.

Well, you can call Shinichi x Ran obvious and boring. And I agree to that opinion. But that doesn't mean others can't find it interesting and romantic. Depends on your own preferences.

Let's put all these different definitions of "good chemistry" asside. I think we can agree that Ais and Conans interaction is "interesting". Whatever interesting means for you.

Well, yea, it is my opinion. And Ran and Shinichi can be someone else's favorite. But that's the reason I don't really like Ran and Shinichi together in the show. But then again, it could be my bias, because Ran was always my least favorite character even before I saw Haibara. And at that time, there were barely any other couples. So I was stuck with the RanxShin idea.
When I first saw Haibara I thought she would be annoying. But she turned out to be my favorite female character eva!

I don't think Ranxshin is interesting because I already know they love each other. Most of the episodes have been the same with them. Also, I guess I see Haibara and Conan more. I mean, how many times have I seen Ran and Shinichi together? Not even close to 100 times out of the 600+ episodes. Now that I can see Ran without Shinichi, whether Ran loves Shinichi is just...well, dull and leaves no room for thinking...it's a fairy tale love that isn't entirely realistic. It's very elementary (loved each other since grade school and have high school love...)

I just can't see Haibara without Conan because they've been through these episodes together. Ran and Shinichi may have known each other a long time, they haven't been together throughout the whole series more than a couple times.
CoAi is more serious, involved, and has elevation. It's like a real relationship where people get to know each other and can learn from one another about the real world. It's a more grown-up relationship.

That's my spin. And I like Haibara because she can stand on her own two feet without Shinichi. She has her own way of doing things, she isn't clingy, she's intelligent, and she's more important to the main plot (Bo) than Shinichi. So, since I love her, I also love ShinxShiho CoAi.

[Schillok]

That wasn't the only hint thrown out by Gosho there that there is meant to be something. Remember the episode where the Detective Boys were making a movie. But before we knew that, Haibara was saying "Don't you know she loves you? You really don't know women at all. Don't you see? I love you." And everyone went OMG (added emphasis), but then we found out it was just a movie they were making? Why would Gosho put those two individuals in that situation, without telling us it was a movie beforehand, and having Haibara say those exact words? It was put there for a reason.

I am 99.5% sure that an Anime Original. Which was not made by Gosho.
But yes, that is my point - it was just made as a joke/ to confuse the viewer and not to have any influence on the story (beside to introduce the "criminal" in the next scene of course). There was no "big masterplan" of Gosho to introduce Ai x Conan (one sided) with that theater play (character level), it was just a joke on the producer/viewer level.

If the episode brought it up, and the manga, why was it put there? Do you think Gosho put it there for his health?

Same as the scene in the AO. For purely comedic reasons. [Well, that is my interpretation at least.]

I think Conan avoided the idea tat she loved him because he was afraid. If he got the truth, that would put him in an awkward position because he said he loved Ran. And when you find out someone you never thought loved you, might possibly love you, it's hard to bring it to the person's attention. He also thinks Haibara is too tough to be "a person in love" which he has said before.

Conan didn't look very afraid to me.
Beside, he had no problem telling his "first love" (the girl who made the cake for the soccer club and had a crush on him) that he was interested in another girl. And he was younger at that time. And he didn't seem to have such a hard time telling it to her when she did, nor did he avoid coming to the point in any way.
That leaves the last part of your conclusion, which I agree on: Haibara is too tough to be "a person in love" or Conan doesn't consider Haibara the type of girl to be in love with him.

[Abs.]

That wasn't the only hint thrown out by Gosho there that there is meant to be something. Remember the episode where the Detective Boys were making a movie. But before we knew that, Haibara was saying "Don't you know she loves you? You really don't know women at all. Don't you see? I love you." And everyone went OMG (added emphasis), but then we found out it was just a movie they were making? Why would Gosho put those two individuals in that situation, without telling us it was a movie beforehand, and having Haibara say those exact words? It was put there for a reason.

I am 99.5% sure that an Anime Original. Which was not made by Gosho.

Here's the 0.5%

Volume 23, File 10.  Also known as File 231.  100% Aoyama Gosho.

[Conia]

WOW, too many words... Conia dizzy...

emm... about the something-om-my-face, it looks like Conan was going to ask the do-you-love-me question,but he changed his mind in the last moment...
Of course this could have been made just to misslead us, but I think this is what hapened

As it was said before, probably Conan took Haibara out of the category "person-in-love" and hasn't thought about it again...

[Schillok]

Here's the 0.5%
Volume 23, File 10.  Also known as File 231.  100% Aoyama Gosho.

Urk... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew1Nr5rHQn0.
Yeah... you are right.

Spoiler:

Just in case you are wondering about the music... I am feeling like cornered Edgeworth now.  :-\

Don't know what to say now... ohh wait.

Spoiler:

Pfew, I am saved...

Well... that translation is different from what you said.
And it makes much more sense if you consider that Ai is not the Spy who is in love with Kamen Yaiba, but some kind of advisor suggesting him that he tells the truth to the girl he loves. The way it was written it seems like they were talking about Ran, right?
Well, I have no idea what Gosho planed with this scene. But probably not suggesting that Haibara wants Conan to tell his secret identity.

[Abs.]

Miles Edgeworth.  Now there's a real man.  A gay man, but nonetheless a real man. 

Here's my translation of the original japanese!

1.1.  There's no mistake...
1.2.  She's vaguely getting an idea of your identity...
2.1.  There's no use hiding the truth from her anymore...  It'll only hurt her.
2.2.  Why, why are you telling me this...
3.1.  Oh?  Even your eyes of justice, which can see through evil hearts, cannot understand the heart of a woman...
3.2.  The heart of a woman?
4.1.  I've fallen in love with you...  From when we first met...  You didn't notice, did you...
5.1.  Kamen Yaiba-san?