Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby dolly94 » October 22nd, 2017, 5:30 pm

I don't understand why this movie grossed higher than the darkest nightmare. :|
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Spimer » October 22nd, 2017, 6:24 pm

Because it's got the big romances ShinRan and HeiKazu and japanese fandom prefer a focus on romance more than on plot or BO.

So that's what makes this film have a higher grossing than M20: it had exactly what they wanted.

Also, unlike us Western fans, they aren't so demanding out of the movies or wanting to pinpoint flaws with script or so but rather to treasure it and enjoy the ride, some admit they go more than once to the theaters to see it again because they liked it so much.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » October 23rd, 2017, 12:45 pm

dolly94 wrote:I don't understand why this movie grossed higher than the darkest nightmare. :|



I really love Romances, but this movie is boring. But Still, it is much better than that Awful Nightmare Movie. That was movie Is SO Nightmare
dolly94
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby dolly94 » October 23rd, 2017, 4:27 pm

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
dolly94 wrote:I don't understand why this movie grossed higher than the darkest nightmare. :|



I really love Romances, but this movie is boring. But Still, it is much better than that Awful Nightmare Movie. That was movie Is SO Nightmare


It differs in what ppl like. I also like Romance, but M21 was boring that's why I don't understand why they liked it that much. Still, darkest nightmare was good imo.
dolly94
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby dolly94 » October 23rd, 2017, 4:28 pm

Spimer wrote:Because it's got the big romances ShinRan and HeiKazu and japanese fandom prefer a focus on romance more than on plot or BO.

So that's what makes this film have a higher grossing than M20: it had exactly what they wanted.

Also, unlike us Western fans, they aren't so demanding out of the movies or wanting to pinpoint flaws with script or so but rather to treasure it and enjoy the ride, some admit they go more than once to the theaters to see it again because they liked it so much.


Yea, I know that they like it because of the pairings, Thanx for answering anyway ;)
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » October 24th, 2017, 1:31 am

dolly94 wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
dolly94 wrote:I don't understand why this movie grossed higher than the darkest nightmare. :|



I really love Romances, but this movie is boring. But Still, it is much better than that Awful Nightmare Movie. That was movie Is SO Nightmare


It differs in what ppl like. I also like Romance, but M21 was boring that's why I don't understand why they liked it that much. Still, darkest nightmare was good imo.


Yup, I also love Romances, and sure that the movie number 21 is so boring, and I bored from when I reached the half time of it. But it is much better than that nightmare movie. That movie is so so so so awful more than I imagined
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby dolly94 » October 24th, 2017, 11:38 am

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
dolly94 wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
dolly94 wrote:I don't understand why this movie grossed higher than the darkest nightmare. :|



I really love Romances, but this movie is boring. But Still, it is much better than that Awful Nightmare Movie. That was movie Is SO Nightmare


It differs in what ppl like. I also like Romance, but M21 was boring that's why I don't understand why they liked it that much. Still, darkest nightmare was good imo.


Yup, I also love Romances, and sure that the movie number 21 is so boring, and I bored from when I reached the half time of it. But it is much better than that nightmare movie. That movie is so so so so awful more than I imagined


Really? For me personally I liked darkest nightmare :)
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » October 24th, 2017, 11:38 pm

I can see why you like that so so so awful movie
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Okiyakaivan » October 30th, 2017, 7:03 am

Do you guys think he will be on M22? Like flashback scene Image
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Kor » November 4th, 2017, 11:15 pm

This movie was kind of terrible. The mystery isn't interesting and some scenes go on for way too long to the point of boredom. One of the stakes in the movie is "the karuta club may disband", which is kind of impossible to take seriously. The movie tries to be way too dramatic about a card game and focuses on it too much, and if you don't care about karuta, this doesn't leave you with much. Lastly, the entire met-in-childhood love rival is still one of the worst decisions ever and it's unfortunate we now need to tolerate the existence of this character in the manga too.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » November 5th, 2017, 10:16 pm

Kor wrote:Lastly, the entire met-in-childhood love rival is still one of the worst decisions ever and it's unfortunate we now need to tolerate the existence of this character in the manga too.


Do you mean...

A) This concept could be executed competently, but not by (post-Vermouth arc, and especially Bourbon arc–present) Gosho Aoyama?

Or do you mean...

B) This very concept is flat out garbage, and thus, any writer who uses it is making a terrible decision?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Kor » November 6th, 2017, 11:51 pm

Can I say... both?

There has to be some combination of a writer, director, editor, etc. who can probably execute something like that in an okay manner (at least the love rival aspect. The met-once-in-childhood is a very sketchy element that is very hard to take seriously because the idea that someone will be so completely infatuated with someone they met once as kids, reads awful on paper.) So yes, it being a thing by Gosho is one reason why this doesn't work, though I'd argue it has nothing to do with it being post or pre Vermouth or whatnot. The dude simply isn't good at writing romance, and no matter how many times he refers to this sort of thing as a "romantic comedy", it's not really romantic and it's definitely not comedic.

At the same time, there's also the part of me that doesn't really care all that much for romantic subplots in general. I can appreciate it when it's done right, or they're part of the core center of the movie (on the anime side of things, some ghibli movies come to mind). There are times, however, in which romantic subplots (or... romance related tangents) are inserted for no real reason other than... shoeing in a romance or give the hero a girlfriend/boyfriend cause you think people expect your hero to have a girlfriend/boyfriend by the end of the film. (Some super hero movies come to mind here. These things can function perfectly well without trying to sell some cheap love interest that doesn't make the movie better in any shape or form).
So it's not that "love rival" equals "bad", it's just that many times in fiction these sort of tangents can be fairly gratuitous (which is definitely the case when it comes to Momiji and most of the romance subplots in this series. When it comes down to it, even Kazuha is a bit of an unnecessary entity as she serves no other function besides being that chick who'll be Heiji's girlfriend by the end.)
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » November 7th, 2017, 3:19 am

Kor wrote:There has to be some combination of a writer, director, editor, etc. who can probably execute something like that in an okay manner (at least the love rival aspect. The met-once-in-childhood is a very sketchy element that is very hard to take seriously because the idea that someone will be so completely infatuated with someone they met once as kids, reads awful on paper.) So yes, it being a thing by Gosho is one reason why this doesn't work, though I'd argue it has nothing to do with it being post or pre Vermouth or whatnot.

The dude simply isn't good at writing romance, and no matter how many times he refers to this sort of thing as a "romantic comedy", it's not really romantic and it's definitely not comedic.

At the same time, there's also the part of me that doesn't really care all that much for romantic subplots in general. I can appreciate it when it's done right, or they're part of the core center of the movie (on the anime side of things, some ghibli movies come to mind). There are times, however, in which romantic subplots (or... romance related tangents) are inserted for no real reason other than... shoeing in a romance or give the hero a girlfriend/boyfriend cause you think people expect your hero to have a girlfriend/boyfriend by the end of the film. (Some super hero movies come to mind here. These things can function perfectly well without trying to sell some cheap love interest that doesn't make the movie better in any shape or form).

So it's not that "love rival" equals "bad", it's just that many times in fiction these sort of tangents can be fairly gratuitous (which is definitely the case when it comes to Momiji and most of the romance subplots in this series. When it comes down to it, even Kazuha is a bit of an unnecessary entity as she serves no other function besides being that chick who'll be Heiji's girlfriend by the end.)


Since you named Ghibli on the animation side, may I ask which mangakas (if this term isn't a misnomer, on my part) you consider to be good at writing romance?

So it really is the worst of both worlds—bad concept (met-once-in-childhood) plus bad execution.

So we're left with characters who aren't really (complex and developed) characters (with well-conceived and well-executed story arcs), but (sub)plot devices which are 1) wastes of potential and 2) distractions from the things that weren't immediately considered to be badly conceived and badly executed, right?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Kor » November 7th, 2017, 10:37 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Since you named Ghibli on the animation side, may I ask which mangakas (if this term isn't a misnomer, on my part) you consider to be good at writing romance?


The romance genre isn't something I've ever actively sought, and I don't/didn't read many manga (would rather watch that stuff animated, though nowadays I don't watch much anime as well), so I can't really give any names here.

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:So it really is the worst of both worlds—bad concept (met-once-in-childhood) plus bad execution.


Yes, but let's extend this concept to "met once in childhood love rival in a romantic subplot in which it was clear from very early on that the de-facto couple will end up together so quite clearly there are zero stakes with this love rivalry".

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:So we're left with characters who aren't really (complex and developed) characters (with well-conceived and well-executed story arcs), but (sub)plot devices which are 1) wastes of potential and 2) distractions from the things that weren't immediately considered to be badly conceived and badly executed, right?


I don't know about the 2nd point, cause if these subplots didn't exist, there'd probably be other distractions. As for the rest, yeah, I guess that's one way to put it. Thing is, it's not the end of the world that some of these characters aren't complex and developed. It's a shonen manga and (despite what may be implied at times from some of my criticism) I don't expect it to be some high art literary fiction. It's okay if minor recurring character that doesn't amount to anything remains minor recurring character that doesn't amount to anything.
When a lot of us in the forum collectively facepalmed once we learned that Chiba's getting a love interest, it's not because Chiba was some character with potential to be anything more than... Chiba. Chiba could have remained childhood-friend-less and just continue to do... whatever Chiba was doing before Naeko was brought in. There was never any real need to give this character a subplot, but okay, Gosho decided to give this character a subplot and do something with him. And what did Gosho decide to do with this character? Add him to the list of characters a childhood love interest. Same thing applies to Heiji/Kazuha/Momiji. Gosho didn't have to introduce a "love rival" that isn't going to affect anything (who also happens to be a character Heiji met as a kid once), but he did.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 21: "Dark crimson Love Letter" (2017)

Postby Serinox » November 7th, 2017, 11:02 am

Kor wrote:Lastly, the entire met-in-childhood love rival is still one of the worst decisions ever and it's unfortunate we now need to tolerate the existence of this character in the manga too.

Though for now at least the met-in-childhood part is movie only. In the manga, Momiji just wants to marry Heiji, but no reference whatsoever have been made to their promise or anything else. Considering that misunderstanding they had as children was resolved within the movie, I don't know if it will ever be imported into the manga at all.

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