Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 26th, 2017, 11:34 pm

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:...but still I figured out what he is from his answers...


Which posts/"answers" are you even referring to? Do you have links to the post(s)? Can you copy and paste the post(s)?

In the end, though, even if k11chi had/has an unfavorable opinion of Scarlet Showdown, one should not assume that means k11chi must then, by default, have an unfavorable opinion of Movie 20.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » March 27th, 2017, 6:40 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:...but still I figured out what he is from his answers...


Which posts/"answers" are you even referring to? Do you have links to the post(s)? Can you copy and paste the post(s)?

In the end, though, even if k11chi had/has an unfavorable opinion of Scarlet Showdown, one should not assume that means k11chi must then, by default, have an unfavorable opinion of Movie 20.


Ok, I am sorry again then, I know which thread that I am talking about. They are two threads, but no problem. It is just an opinion; so shoganai desu. but I will still say that this movie is so so so stupid, and I have a reasons; so no one can say that I only want to be a different than others
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby k11chi » March 27th, 2017, 8:42 am

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Really no point from this Movie. So Stupid, So Awful, So Frustrating, Bourbon there for no reason, want to make us feel scare from the "Goast Ram", "Gin was So Stupid". Vermouth no point from seeing her in this movie. One hundred Million Spies, and so on.

ReallY so stupid movie

None of those are really true.



Please, you should see the scarlet episodes, and the movie again. I did saw your opinion in the scarlet episodes Thread; so I know you better than anyone. But no problem , if you believe me, then that's fine


There's literally noithing "pointless" about this movie. It was supposed to be an over-the-top celebration movie, as you can see when you have characters jumping around like Tarzans. It's not supposed to be a realistic movie in the slightest. Gin definitely wasn't any different in this movie than in canon. Stabbing Vermouth with an ice pick in a bar? Setting up bombs in a train? Making apartments explode to destroy evidence? Very careful yeah. Also Rum wasn't there to scare anyone, Vermouth had her connections to Curacao and the spy thing does not matter. If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.
The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Kor » March 27th, 2017, 9:07 am

k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 27th, 2017, 9:39 am

Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.


k11chi's point is moot, really—no fan can directly "force" Gosho Aoyama to change anything about DC's story or characters, unless the fans have an effect on Shogakukan (e.g., Masumi being created because of fan reaction to Natsuki Koshimizu).

k11chi only mentioned the spies as a criticism he/she did not care for—inferring, from that, that k11chi also has no problems with every other element in DC, and will also assert that Gosho is beyond any reproach or criticism, seems like a stretch to me.

Your intent is to head off at the pass any attitudes of "the author is beyond critique," correct? If this is your intent, I have no problems with such intent, just to be clear.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » March 27th, 2017, 10:00 am

Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ to your answer. Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me

k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Really no point from this Movie. So Stupid, So Awful, So Frustrating, Bourbon there for no reason, want to make us feel scare from the "Goast Ram", "Gin was So Stupid". Vermouth no point from seeing her in this movie. One hundred Million Spies, and so on.

ReallY so stupid movie

None of those are really true.



Please, you should see the scarlet episodes, and the movie again. I did saw your opinion in the scarlet episodes Thread; so I know you better than anyone. But no problem , if you believe me, then that's fine


There's literally noithing "pointless" about this movie. It was supposed to be an over-the-top celebration movie, as you can see when you have characters jumping around like Tarzans. It's not supposed to be a realistic movie in the slightest. Gin definitely wasn't any different in this movie than in canon. Stabbing Vermouth with an ice pick in a bar? Setting up bombs in a train? Making apartments explode to destroy evidence? Very careful yeah. Also Rum wasn't there to scare anyone, Vermouth had her connections to Curacao and the spy thing does not matter. If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.
The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all.



Are you sure that the Rum wasn't such as "Ghost", then what about the secret base that the girl was hearing his voice from all the places, or Am I wrong? No, I am not, and I am sure about what I am saying. Secondly, about Gin, and Vermouth, Please see the event when Gin was nearby to kill Kir, and The most stupid Person "Bourbon", only one message made both Gin, and Vermouth believe what Kir, and Bourbon are saying. Also, everyone was working beyond Gin's face, and still he is smart, who this could be right?

In the addition, Why The most stupid is this Person "Bourbon"? From the first time, I didn't saw any thing right he did. He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason.

You can throw the all things in the up; because the thread about the movie; so I will give you an event in this movie. The Fighting Between him, and Akai were the most stupid event in the Movie; because there is no point from it, and Thanks to this stupid person, then Akai even if I hate Akai, but still he was in Danger.

So, Why I said that I understand you? You understand from this thing: " The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all."
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby k11chi » March 27th, 2017, 10:31 am

Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.

I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore. It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.
As for the whole picture, we just have to
Spoiler:
WAIT AND SEE

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
Spoiler:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ to your answer. Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Really no point from this Movie. So Stupid, So Awful, So Frustrating, Bourbon there for no reason, want to make us feel scare from the "Goast Ram", "Gin was So Stupid". Vermouth no point from seeing her in this movie. One hundred Million Spies, and so on.

ReallY so stupid movie

None of those are really true.



Please, you should see the scarlet episodes, and the movie again. I did saw your opinion in the scarlet episodes Thread; so I know you better than anyone. But no problem , if you believe me, then that's fine


There's literally noithing "pointless" about this movie. It was supposed to be an over-the-top celebration movie, as you can see when you have characters jumping around like Tarzans. It's not supposed to be a realistic movie in the slightest. Gin definitely wasn't any different in this movie than in canon. Stabbing Vermouth with an ice pick in a bar? Setting up bombs in a train? Making apartments explode to destroy evidence? Very careful yeah. Also Rum wasn't there to scare anyone, Vermouth had her connections to Curacao and the spy thing does not matter. If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.
The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all.



Are you sure that the Rum wasn't such as "Ghost", then what about the secret base that the girl was hearing his voice from all the places, or Am I wrong? No, I am not, and I am sure about what I am saying. Secondly, about Gin, and Vermouth, Please see the event when Gin was nearby to kill Kir, and The most stupid Person "Bourbon", only one message made both Gin, and Vermouth believe what Kir, and Bourbon are saying. Also, everyone was working beyond Gin's face, and still he is smart, who this could be right?

In the addition, Why The most stupid is this Person "Bourbon"? From the first time, I didn't saw any thing right he did. He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason.

You can throw the all things in the up; because the thread about the movie; so I will give you an event in this movie. The Fighting Between him, and Akai were the most stupid event in the Movie; because there is no point from it, and Thanks to this stupid person, then Akai even if I hate Akai, but still he was in Danger.

So, Why I said that I understand you? You understand from this thing: " The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all."

These events having no reason or motive behind them and you being unable to accept them for your own subjective reasons are two very different things...
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » March 27th, 2017, 11:29 am

Spoiler:
k11chi wrote:
Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.

I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
Kor wrote:
So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.



Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore. It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.
As for the whole picture, we just have to WAIT AND SEE answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Really no point from this Movie. So Stupid, So Awful, So Frustrating, Bourbon there for no reason, want to make us feel scare from the "Goast Ram", "Gin was So Stupid". Vermouth no point from seeing her in this movie. One hundred Million Spies, and so on.

ReallY so stupid movie

None of those are really true.


Please, you should see the scarlet episodes, and the movie again. I did saw your opinion in the scarlet episodes Thread; so I know you better than anyone. But no problem , if you believe me, then that's fine


There's literally noithing "pointless" about this movie. It was supposed to be an over-the-top celebration movie, as you can see when you have characters jumping around like Tarzans. It's not supposed to be a realistic movie in the slightest. Gin definitely wasn't any different in this movie than in canon. Stabbing Vermouth with an ice pick in a bar? Setting up bombs in a train? Making apartments explode to destroy evidence? Very careful yeah. Also Rum wasn't there to scare anyone, Vermouth had her connections to Curacao and the spy thing does not matter. If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.
The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all.



Are you sure that the Rum wasn't such as "Ghost", then what about the secret base that the girl was hearing his voice from all the places, or Am I wrong? No, I am not, and I am sure about what I am saying. Secondly, about Gin, and Vermouth, Please see the event when Gin was nearby to kill Kir, and The most stupid Person "Bourbon", only one message made both Gin, and Vermouth believe what Kir, and Bourbon are saying. Also, everyone was working beyond Gin's face, and still he is smart, who this could be right?

In the addition, Why The most stupid is this Person "Bourbon"? From the first time, I didn't saw any thing right he did. He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason.

You can throw the all things in the up; because the thread about the movie; so I will give you an event in this movie. The Fighting Between him, and Akai were the most stupid event in the Movie; because there is no point from it, and Thanks to this stupid person, then Akai even if I hate Akai, but still he was in Danger.

So, Why I said that I understand you? You understand from this thing: " The scarlet showdown is the final part of the Bourbon arc and acted as the transition towards the next. That's all."

These events having no reason or motive behind them and you being unable to accept them for your own subjective reasons are two very different things...



[h1]Great, so you are saying that I am not accepting the things, and sure I will not; because why I should accept the wrongs. I am a fan, can understand what the things by my own; so I wrote this word so I'm wit kor when kor said "So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.", with giving my answer.

Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me".

Furthermore, I did wait 450 episodes, and 10 movies, and still nothing happened. I was waiting the True Conan which is in my opinion until the episode 425, or to 450; so I said the I did wait 450 episodes; because the Stupid episodes will pass the first half which is the half of the episodes.

And I said the same thing for the movies; because from movie 11, the movies was so bad, so stupid, so awful. You can say that Movie 12, 15, and 18 are better than 11, 13, 14, 16, 17,19, and 20, but still there are not that good. And movie 21 in my opinion will be awful also; so I will not wait; because I will didn't understand anything from Ghoso Aoyama.[/h1]
Last edited by Spimer on March 27th, 2017, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby k11chi » March 27th, 2017, 12:49 pm

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
[h1]Great, so you are saying that I am not accepting the things, and sure I will not; because why I should accept the wrongs. I am a fan, can understand what the things by my own; so I wrote this word so I'm wit kor when kor said "So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.", with giving my answer "+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ to your answer. Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me".

Furthermore, I did wait 450 episodes, and 10 movies, and still nothing happened. I was waiting the True Conan which is in my opinion until the episode 425, or to 450; so I said the I did wait 450 episodes; because the Stupid episodes will pass the first half which is the half of the episodes. And I said the same thing for the movies; because from movie 11, the movies was so bad, so stupid, so awful. You can say that Movie 12, 15, and 18 are better than 11, 13, 14, 16, 17,19, and 20, but still there are not that good. And movie 21 in my opinion will be awful also; so I will not wait; because I will didn't understand anything from Ghoso Aoyama.[/h1]

We have already had debates about how Rum arc is the best one since Vermouth arc but when it comes to the individual cases there are things that Gosho has improved on, not gotten worse. And no they're not stupid most of the time. I don't think it's me who has to rewatch the series.

17 to 20 have all been very enjoyable to me actually. Movies 11 to 16 were below average. And 21 will be awful? Not even going to bother. What matters to me is the character screentime and relevancy in the movie's plot which I'm expecting Heiji and Kazuha to have. After all the movies are more content for the franchise, not a continuation for the main story.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Kor » March 27th, 2017, 1:55 pm

k11chi wrote:I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore.


Technically, you can criticize such ideas especially when it's an idea Gosho has used more than once before (thus you can get a premise of where he might go with said idea). People who have been criticizing Gosho for the spies thing have plenty of valid reasons. It's repetitive on Gosho's part and seems to be one of those few ideas he goes back to. As you claim, it's no longer a big plot point to have another spy, yet in the manga it's been treated as a big deal, and we've spent a few years focusing on this one specific member who ended up as a spy. If we spent so much time on this one aspect that is no longer a big deal, isn't that just ineffective storytelling? Not to mention, the more spies you add, the weaker your villains seem, and your villains shouldn't seem weak or incompetent because that'd make the readers take them less seriously.

k11chi wrote:It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.


But if you add one specific idea over and over that serves the same function, aren't you just being redundant?

Forgive me for going back to this point.
If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


There are few issues here. For one, how does one know for sure that Gosho has plans? Second, even if he does have plans, how does one know those are good plans? Lastly, just because Gosho has plans doesn't necessarily mean he's succeeding at constructing well written narratives.
Gosho sure seems to have a plan for Chiba and Naeko to get together. Does this mean this "storyline" shouldn't be criticized?

k11chi wrote:As for the whole picture, we just have to
Spoiler:
WAIT AND SEE



If we have to wait and see, doesn't that mean we have to wait until Gosho finally completes the series until we can criticize it? Cause one may argue that only then we have the whole picture. But wait, that's a really long time. Or maybe at least we have to wait and see until the end of a story arc? That takes quite a lot of time as well. Heck, if we have to wait and see, then does that mean the Heiji and Kazuha romance (for example) is also beyond criticism because that has been going on for years and its end is still not in sight.

I don't wish to mischaracterize your stance, but I'm trying to show why it's not ideal for this series because it can be stretched and stretched until this series (as well as any currently ongoing series in existence) is beyond criticism. If it was a book or a movie? Sure, you should wait and see until it's over before delivering a critique. But a series that has been going for decades and doesn't seem to get to its finale any time soon (or story arcs that take years to resolve)? it just doesn't seem fair to expect its readers/viewers to not criticize it as it's going. One may always claim that we should wait and see, one may always claim that we just didn't get the bigger picture yet, one may always claim that the writer has plans.

Or we can always just flip the coin around. If one should wait and see in order to criticize the series, one should also wait and see in order to praise the series. And thus we end up with a product that cannot be interacted with on a critical level until we reach the end point of our long journey of waiting and seeing.
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Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » March 27th, 2017, 5:17 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.


k11chi's point is moot, really—no fan can directly "force" Gosho Aoyama to change anything about DC's story or characters, unless the fans have an effect on Shogakukan (e.g., Masumi being created because of fan reaction to Natsuki Koshimizu).

k11chi only mentioned the spies as a criticism he/she did not care for—inferring, from that, that k11chi also has no problems with every other element in DC, and will also assert that Gosho is beyond any reproach or criticism, seems like a stretch to me.

Your intent is to head off at the pass any attitudes of "the author is beyond critique," correct? If this is your intent, I have no problems with such intent, just to be clear.


Then, because he doesn't have any problem with the DC Arcs, then we should, then why do you a fan? Why do you see the anime? Isn't the Anime Supposed to be for the fans?

And as a fan, then I can give my opinion, and say my opinions. Do I have to accept the wrong that the bouron made?

Please see the Boubron Arc:

"He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason."; so do I have to lie to myself, and only say that it is right. Ghoso Aoyama knows what he is doing. Nothing wrong with the story, then why we are fans of the DC?

The fans are the people who were interest in things, and made opinions, arguing with people without lie about their feelings.


So Mister DCUniverseAficionado, Let's imagine that Detective Conan will finish after 100 years, or let's say only 2000 episodes, Do I have to wait all these times, and keep my words, and opinions until that time? Then, tell me why do you love Detective Conan then? You must wait the final episodes, or the episodes whom nearby the finals or the DC, and then choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime; because the final of the DC maybe will be so boring, so awful; so for that, you must keep loving the anime, or not loving the anime until the finales of the anime.


k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
[h1]Great, so you are saying that I am not accepting the things, and sure I will not; because why I should accept the wrongs. I am a fan, can understand what the things by my own; so I wrote this word so I'm wit kor when kor said "So basically the author (and whatever the author does) is beyond criticism because he's the author? Is that something you truly believe? Because that's the only conclusion that can be inferred from what you wrote above.", with giving my answer "+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ to your answer. Furthermore, he can do whatever he want, but we also as fans can understand by our ways, and say what we want at the time we want, and at the the place that we want also. Kor, I think I read your answers in the same thread that I am talking about, and I am sure than your opinions in that thread were such as me".

Furthermore, I did wait 450 episodes, and 10 movies, and still nothing happened. I was waiting the True Conan which is in my opinion until the episode 425, or to 450; so I said the I did wait 450 episodes; because the Stupid episodes will pass the first half which is the half of the episodes. And I said the same thing for the movies; because from movie 11, the movies was so bad, so stupid, so awful. You can say that Movie 12, 15, and 18 are better than 11, 13, 14, 16, 17,19, and 20, but still there are not that good. And movie 21 in my opinion will be awful also; so I will not wait; because I will didn't understand anything from Ghoso Aoyama.[/h1]

We have already had debates about how Rum arc is the best one since Vermouth arc but when it comes to the individual cases there are things that Gosho has improved on, not gotten worse. And no they're not stupid most of the time. I don't think it's me who has to rewatch the series.

17 to 20 have all been very enjoyable to me actually. Movies 11 to 16 were below average. And 21 will be awful? Not even going to bother. What matters to me is the character screentime and relevancy in the movie's plot which I'm expecting Heiji and Kazuha to have. After all the movies are more content for the franchise, not a continuation for the main story.


Are you sure about the Rum Arc will be awesome? Sorry, but I am so sorry to tell that it will be so stupid again. About Vermouth Arc, I feel so sorry for it; because she now is more than stupid, and I cannot imagine this. I feel now that she is an ordinary member in the Black Organization, which means all her good story when she challenged Jodie one of the best character that became so stupid now became waste, and more than waste. But now, I think stupid is small word, I should give you a big word like worst, so worst, and so on. So yes you are the one who should see the anime again.

About the movies from 11 to 20, they were so boring, so awful, but 12, and 15, and 18 were much better than all of 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 20. And I am sure the movie 21 will be so awful, and no meaning from it

Furthermore, why I should wait? Why?
Let's imagine that Detective Conan will finish after 100 years, or let's say only 2000 episodes, Do I have to wait all these times, and keep my words, and opinions until that time? Then, tell me why do you love Detective Conan then? You must wait the final episodes, or the episodes whom nearby the finals or the DC, and then choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime; because the final of the DC maybe will be so boring, so awful; so for that, you must keep loving the anime, or not loving the anime until the finales of the anime

Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore.


Technically, you can criticize such ideas especially when it's an idea Gosho has used more than once before (thus you can get a premise of where he might go with said idea). People who have been criticizing Gosho for the spies thing have plenty of valid reasons. It's repetitive on Gosho's part and seems to be one of those few ideas he goes back to. As you claim, it's no longer a big plot point to have another spy, yet in the manga it's been treated as a big deal, and we've spent a few years focusing on this one specific member who ended up as a spy. If we spent so much time on this one aspect that is no longer a big deal, isn't that just ineffective storytelling? Not to mention, the more spies you add, the weaker your villains seem, and your villains shouldn't seem weak or incompetent because that'd make the readers take them less seriously.

k11chi wrote:It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.


But if you add one specific idea over and over that serves the same function, aren't you just being redundant?

Forgive me for going back to this point.
If Gosho wants to add more spies I literally could not care less and neither should you. Why? Because if that's what Gosho has plans for then we shouldn't go around forcing him to change them.


There are few issues here. For one, how does one know for sure that Gosho has plans? Second, even if he does have plans, how does one know those are good plans? Lastly, just because Gosho has plans doesn't necessarily mean he's succeeding at constructing well written narratives.
Gosho sure seems to have a plan for Chiba and Naeko to get together. Does this mean this "storyline" shouldn't be criticized?

k11chi wrote:As for the whole picture, we just have to
Spoiler:
WAIT AND SEE



If we have to wait and see, doesn't that mean we have to wait until Gosho finally completes the series until we can criticize it? Cause one may argue that only then we have the whole picture. But wait, that's a really long time. Or maybe at least we have to wait and see until the end of a story arc? That takes quite a lot of time as well. Heck, if we have to wait and see, then does that mean the Heiji and Kazuha romance (for example) is also beyond criticism because that has been going on for years and its end is still not in sight.

I don't wish to mischaracterize your stance, but I'm trying to show why it's not ideal for this series because it can be stretched and stretched until this series (as well as any currently ongoing series in existence) is beyond criticism. If it was a book or a movie? Sure, you should wait and see until it's over before delivering a critique. But a series that has been going for decades and doesn't seem to get to its finale any time soon (or story arcs that take years to resolve)? it just doesn't seem fair to expect its readers/viewers to not criticize it as it's going. One may always claim that we should wait and see, one may always claim that we just didn't get the bigger picture yet, one may always claim that the writer has plans.

Or we can always just flip the coin around. If one should wait and see in order to criticize the series, one should also wait and see in order to praise the series. And thus we end up with a product that cannot be interacted with on a critical level until we reach the end point of our long journey of waiting and seeing.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That's right, I am so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. That's right, Ghoso Aoyama is wasting our time all these times for something that is more than repetable. I think Kir had a good story, and she was a nice Spy, but now she only send a message to all of Jodie, Kamel, Conan, and Akai, then why She is working in CIA? How a tea, like CIA only working as small member under the hand of FBI, but Still she was good in the biginning. But, what the point of Bourbon, Ghoso Aoyama waster all our time from the time of episode 500, I meant from the beginning of Saburu Episodes until now, and then he is a Spy, Is this really a Black Organization, or small new criminal. The boubron story is so awful but Ghoso wants to force us to say that he didn't do anything wrong, and he Is a smart Spy. but look to my answer mister k11chi, the Bourbon's Arc is wroong, and wrong. I didn't saw any thing right he did. He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason.


Kor, I am glad to meet you my friend, and I am so agree with you. That's right, waiting for the finality of Anime will made us just only say let's wait, the anime is still moving, and working, and so on, then I think we should not do any thread, and only wait, I think this idea is good for making mister k11chi more happy, even if it not good for us. About the books, and story, the Agatha Crisitie's episode taked one week; so I can finish it, and I didn't want to wait, so you are right mister kor; because it will take a lot of time.

They wanted us only to wait, even if they know that there is no point from waiting. I did like the story between Chiba, and Naeko, but that right, Do I have to say give the Ghoso Time. He knows what he is doing, and he is right, then why I am fan? Why I am saying the anime all these years? Isn't the anime supposed to be for the Fans?

So Mister k11chi, Let's imagine that Detective Conan will finish after 100 years, or let's say only 2000 episodes, Do I have to wait all these times, and keep my words, and opinions until that time? Then, tell me why do you love Detective Conan then? You must wait the final episodes, or the episodes whom nearby the finals or the DC, and then choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime; because the final of the DC maybe will be so boring, so awful; so for that, you must keep loving the anime, or not loving the anime until the finales of the anime.
k11chi
User avatar
Posts: 1350

Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby k11chi » March 27th, 2017, 7:31 pm

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Are you sure about the Rum Arc will be awesome? Sorry, but I am so sorry to tell that it will be so stupid again. About Vermouth Arc, I feel so sorry for it; because she now is more than stupid, and I cannot imagine this. I feel now that she is an ordinary member in the Black Organization, which means all her good story when she challenged Jodie one of the best character that became so stupid now became waste, and more than waste. But now, I think stupid is small word, I should give you a big word like worst, so worst, and so on. So yes you are the one who should see the anime again.

About the movies from 11 to 20, they were so boring, so awful, but 12, and 15, and 18 were much better than all of 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 20. And I am sure the movie 21 will be so awful, and no meaning from it

Yes because we don't have to look simply at the overarching storyline parts of the arc (which in of itself is interesting and a huge spider's web) since with those we simply have to wait and see how they develop and what they mean. The cases are great and the way the character interaction is presented (especially Heiji moments, scenes and dialogue) is much better than it has been since forever.

I already said it's not me who should see it again, and m15 is one of the worst and most uninspired DC movies. m16 was almost identical in its structure except it added an insert song since forever into the series and more substance with Conan's football hobby being more relevant in it than snowboarding, so m16>m15. And m17, 18 and 20 are definitely more interesting than 13-16.

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Furthermore, why I should wait? Why?
Let's imagine that Detective Conan will finish after 100 years, or let's say only 2000 episodes, Do I have to wait all these times, and keep my words, and opinions until that time? Then, tell me why do you love Detective Conan then? You must wait the final episodes, or the episodes whom nearby the finals or the DC, and then choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime; because the final of the DC maybe will be so boring, so awful; so for that, you must keep loving the anime, or not loving the anime until the finales of the anime

There's a fine line between expecting something to happen and that thing being considered bad such as m21 and the next spy, and the past arcs and individual cases (or "series") that have already ended and will never continue again. The ending of Detective Conan should be the culmination of all the things that have happened. If the ending is "boring and awful" for me then there's going to be something very basic missing there. I'm expecting everyone to get their own final moments but that might not be realistically possible.

And you really have no other choice than to wait if that's where you focus your "criticism" towards to, the future and things that haven't even happened yet, that is. There are people that have waited for quite some time longer than you anyway. You might be surprised about how your opinions change, or start actually forming over time.
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Antiyonder
Posts: 96

Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Antiyonder » March 27th, 2017, 8:06 pm

Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore.


Technically, you can criticize such ideas especially when it's an idea Gosho has used more than once before (thus you can get a premise of where he might go with said idea). People who have been criticizing Gosho for the spies thing have plenty of valid reasons. It's repetitive on Gosho's part and seems to be one of those few ideas he goes back to. As you claim, it's no longer a big plot point to have another spy, yet in the manga it's been treated as a big deal, and we've spent a few years focusing on this one specific member who ended up as a spy. If we spent so much time on this one aspect that is no longer a big deal, isn't that just ineffective storytelling? Not to mention, the more spies you add, the weaker your villains seem, and your villains shouldn't seem weak or incompetent because that'd make the readers take them less seriously.

k11chi wrote:It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.


But if you add one specific idea over and over that serves the same function, aren't you just being redundant?


And to be honest, maybe even the earlier portions of the series which has less of a divisive reaction from fans (generally considered good/great that is) is just as guilty of reusing ideas and cliches, but I don't know.

I feel like early on Gosho's interest in padding it out to make money was at least tempered with an equal amount of creative energy if not more. Even if certain elements weren't changed or reoccurring, he was more like a magician that was able to hide the strings and make us feel like we were seeing something magical in a sense.

I'm sure he still enjoys the series not just because of the money it brings in, but I can't help but feel like some of that creative energy and passion is absent.

k11chi wrote:The cases are great and the way the character interaction is presented (especially Heiji moments, scenes and dialogue) is much better than it has been since forever.


Sure, but considering how it seems there is a majority of the fandom who don't care if the serialized elements are developed or even concluded, I feel Gosho would have been better off just making the lead an actual kid who is a prodigy and just not include the whole defeat The Organization and return to his teenage body.

I mean Doraemon seems to have lasted for a long time without serialization, and The Simpsons has been around since 1989 with no end in sight, so maybe the serialized aspect is really more a liability as far as the quality goes.

But we're stuck with the fact that there is a storyline, so it is a legit point to critique if we don't feel it to be to satisfaction whether fact or opinion.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
Haibara & Aika ryona
User avatar
Posts: 30

Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby Haibara & Aika ryona » March 28th, 2017, 3:11 am

k11chi wrote:
Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Are you sure about the Rum Arc will be awesome? Sorry, but I am so sorry to tell that it will be so stupid again. About Vermouth Arc, I feel so sorry for it; because she now is more than stupid, and I cannot imagine this. I feel now that she is an ordinary member in the Black Organization, which means all her good story when she challenged Jodie one of the best character that became so stupid now became waste, and more than waste. But now, I think stupid is small word, I should give you a big word like worst, so worst, and so on. So yes you are the one who should see the anime again.

About the movies from 11 to 20, they were so boring, so awful, but 12, and 15, and 18 were much better than all of 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 20. And I am sure the movie 21 will be so awful, and no meaning from it

Yes because we don't have to look simply at the overarching storyline parts of the arc (which in of itself is interesting and a huge spider's web) since with those we simply have to wait and see how they develop and what they mean. The cases are great and the way the character interaction is presented (especially Heiji moments, scenes and dialogue) is much better than it has been since forever.

I already said it's not me who should see it again, and m15 is one of the worst and most uninspired DC movies. m16 was almost identical in its structure except it added an insert song since forever into the series and more substance with Conan's football hobby being more relevant in it than snowboarding, so m16>m15. And m17, 18 and 20 are definitely more interesting than 13-16.


No, in reality, then the one who should see the Conan New Episodes, and movies is you; do you know why? Because what did you say are completely wrongs. I did saw the episodes when they talked about RUM, and to tell you the truth, then they was so awful, are one of the wrost episodes. And now, the Mister Ghoso wants us to feel that he is the one who destroy the entire stories, and arc by this movies, with these episodes; so not me who is the one who should see the episodes again. The movie 13, and 20 are so boring, and no points from both of them if you ask me. the Movie 15 even if it is not good, but still the ice place, and some events made it more better than movie 13, 14, and 16. Movie 17 is so so so so so stupiddddddddddddd.

So, no you didn't prove anything, and I did gave a proving of why Boubon is one of the most stupid persons, with giving a lot of reasons, and examples of the episodes; so the one who should see the anime again is you.

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:Furthermore, why I should wait? Why?
Let's imagine that Detective Conan will finish after 100 years, or let's say only 2000 episodes, Do I have to wait all these times, and keep my words, and opinions until that time? Then, tell me why do you love Detective Conan then? You must wait the final episodes, or the episodes whom nearby the finals or the DC, and then choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime; because the final of the DC maybe will be so boring, so awful; so for that, you must keep loving the anime, or not loving the anime until the finales of the anime

There's a fine line between expecting something to happen and that thing being considered bad such as m21 and the next spy, and the past arcs and individual cases (or "series") that have already ended and will never continue again. The ending of Detective Conan should be the culmination of all the things that have happened. If the ending is "boring and awful" for me then there's going to be something very basic missing there. I'm expecting everyone to get their own final moments but that might not be realistically possible.

And you really have no other choice than to wait if that's where you focus your "criticism" towards to, the future and things that haven't even happened yet, that is. There are people that have waited for quite some time longer than you anyway. You might be surprised about how your opinions change, or start actually forming over time.[/quote]

So, the reason is giving the assumptions, and opinions, and arguing is that we are fans, and can see whatever we want at the time we want, and in any place, and this what I am said. I should not wait until the ends of the anime, to illustrate my feeling, or you will be lie; because you didn't wait until the ends for choosing the loving Conan Anime, or Not Loving The Anime, isn't that so? I am as a fan, I don't care about filler, or Manga; because I am the episodes are showing me everything.

and to tell you the truth. Until Now, you didn't answer me about this thing: "In the addition, Why The most stupid is this Person "Bourbon"? From the first time, I didn't saw any thing right he did. He was the reason for the explosion of the train. He want to kill Haibara for no reason. He was one of the reasons of why the Jodie's Friend the teacher who was in the hospital now, even if you told to me that the one who hit her, and throw her is the one of the student's father, but if you ask me then I will tell, that he also didn't care. No, also he put an another plan about doing accident to her, is that so? I saw the episode; so now one can tell me. Thanks goodness that both Kamel, and Jodie didn't die in the Scarlet Episode. He targeted Haibara before, and now Akai, and both for noo reason; so next time who the one that he will target for no reason."; which means that you know that I am so right.

Also, Great to know that there are a lot of people who waited more times than me, how did you come with this idea? I was born in the 1994, and the anime was began in 1996; so how did you come with this idea? I don't know how, but still I just will say that's Great to know that there are a lot of people who waited more times than me.
Antiyonder wrote:
Kor wrote:
k11chi wrote:I'm saying you can't critisize basic ideas like that, only what come from it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions based on pretty much nothing, knowing nothing. It's not even a (big) plot point to have another spy show up anymore.


Technically, you can criticize such ideas especially when it's an idea Gosho has used more than once before (thus you can get a premise of where he might go with said idea). People who have been criticizing Gosho for the spies thing have plenty of valid reasons. It's repetitive on Gosho's part and seems to be one of those few ideas he goes back to. As you claim, it's no longer a big plot point to have another spy, yet in the manga it's been treated as a big deal, and we've spent a few years focusing on this one specific member who ended up as a spy. If we spent so much time on this one aspect that is no longer a big deal, isn't that just ineffective storytelling? Not to mention, the more spies you add, the weaker your villains seem, and your villains shouldn't seem weak or incompetent because that'd make the readers take them less seriously.

k11chi wrote:It's just Gosho adding to already established ideas and using them to develop the story.


But if you add one specific idea over and over that serves the same function, aren't you just being redundant?


And to be honest, maybe even the earlier portions of the series which has less of a divisive reaction from fans (generally considered good/great that is) is just as guilty of reusing ideas and cliches, but I don't know.

I feel like early on Gosho's interest in padding it out to make money was at least tempered with an equal amount of creative energy if not more. Even if certain elements weren't changed or reoccurring, he was more like a magician that was able to hide the strings and make us feel like we were seeing something magical in a sense.

I'm sure he still enjoys the series not just because of the money it brings in, but I can't help but feel like some of that creative energy and passion is absent.


I am happy to hear your opinions my friend mister "Antiyonder".

Well, to me, then no one is blaming him, if he is looking for the money, and I always say that; because It is his life, and the life in Japan is so hard; so I don't blame it, but what made me anger is that the world only blame the fillers writers; so if you will blame them, then you should also blame Ghoso; because he is the one who accept it, and take money from them; so I am a one who not blame filler writers, or Ghoso for doing episodes; so Mister "k11chi", as a fans, I will not just sit in my chair, and wait until the final episode; to give my opinion.

k11chi wrote:The cases are great and the way the character interaction is presented (especially Heiji moments, scenes and dialogue) is much better than it has been since forever.


Sure, but considering how it seems there is a majority of the fandom who don't care if the serialized elements are developed or even concluded, I feel Gosho would have been better off just making the lead an actual kid who is a prodigy and just not include the whole defeat The Organization and return to his teenage body.

I mean Doraemon seems to have lasted for a long time without serialization, and The Simpsons has been around since 1989 with no end in sight, so maybe the serialized aspect is really more a liability as far as the quality goes.

But we're stuck with the fact that there is a storyline, so it is a legit point to critique if we don't feel it to be to satisfaction whether fact or opinion.[/quote]

I am happy to hear your opinions my friend mister "Antiyonder"; because we really should say about our feeling if we don't feel good, or don't feel bad; because we as fans, that the things that we only do.
k11chi
User avatar
Posts: 1350

Re: Detective Conan Movie 20: "The Darkest Nightmare" (2016)

Postby k11chi » March 28th, 2017, 4:56 am

Haibara & Aika ryona wrote:
No, in reality, then the one who should see the Conan New Episodes, and movies is you; do you know why? Because what did you say are completely wrongs. I did saw the episodes when they talked about RUM, and to tell you the truth, then they was so awful, are one of the wrost episodes. And now, the Mister Ghoso wants us to feel that he is the one who destroy the entire stories, and arc by this movies, with these episodes; so not me who is the one who should see the episodes again. The movie 13, and 20 are so boring, and no points from both of them if you ask me. the Movie 15 even if it is not good, but still the ice place, and some events made it more better than movie 13, 14, and 16. Movie 17 is so so so so so stupiddddddddddddd.



Which episodes did you see? Clearly you haven't followed them closely enough and you don't understand what's going on. Why would Gosho want us to feel that he's destroying the arcs with the movies? The movies don't affect the arcs. And movie 17 wasn't stupid. It was one of the more down to earth DC movies.


I already answered your "complaint." Bourbon has his reasons for doing those things, but you just can't accept them for your own personal bias.

Antiyonder wrote:
Sure, but considering how it seems there is a majority of the fandom who don't care if the serialized elements are developed or even concluded, I feel Gosho would have been better off just making the lead an actual kid who is a prodigy and just not include the whole defeat The Organization and return to his teenage body.

I mean Doraemon seems to have lasted for a long time without serialization, and The Simpsons has been around since 1989 with no end in sight, so maybe the serialized aspect is really more a liability as far as the quality goes.

But we're stuck with the fact that there is a storyline, so it is a legit point to critique if we don't feel it to be to satisfaction whether fact or opinion.

If anything the inclusion of the arc characters make the outcome of the cases different from what it would have been without as DC has (always had) an expanding world. And do I have to point out the obvious that there's already a running simpsons detective series like that.
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