DC and culture

[kholoudsafir]

Thanks every one who answered my questions 

I've been reading this blog, http://1000thingsaboutjapan.blogspot.com/ and they mentioned "a vending machine dispensing warm bread in a can". Japan seems to be quite notorious for these vending machines. Does anybody know if there's a reason for this, or is it just "one of those things", like being able to deep-fry anything in Scotland?

All I can tell is that the Japanese love convenience.  (BTW, convenience stores in Japan RULE!  They have tonnes of great stuff, including delicious full meals.)

Of all the vending machines I saw in Japan, two stand out.  One was a vending machine for cut flowers.  I can't quite remember, but I think vase was included.  The other was for dirty magazines and underwear (yes, they sold underwear from the vending machine.  I don't know if it was previously used or not).  It had a shiny coating on the glass so during the day you couldn't see what was inside, but at night when the light behind the glass lit up, you could see the contents.  It was rather kimochi-warui (the Japanese word for icky) to see.

Shame, all what they showed in DC the machines that sell canned drinks and snacks 
dirty magazines and under wear  , but would not this create an access for children to these things easily??
or Japanese kids are well behaved that they wont even think to go near it!!

I'd have to disagree.  We often expect people to conform when they are in our country.  To give an example, lining up, or not cutting in line, is not a universal custom.  There are many places I've been where people don't line up, or it's normal for people to simply push their way into lines.  It's not necessarily rude or unexpected.  But when they visit a country where lining up is the norm, they are considered very rude and potentially unintelligent if they simply cut ahead.  The same could be said for expectations of dress codes and personal behaviours (such as picking one's nose).  There are things that are rude in one culture that are not in another, but in general, guests are expected to act according to the norms of the countries that they are visiting.

Actually, the lining up example is quite valid because a lot of civilized countries don't do it. Ever tried queueing for a bus in Italy? Have fun.  and it would seem a universally sensible thing to be able to cross the street when the green man is up without dying, but I can't tell you how often I nearly got run over when I visited France. Actually, it's pretty much the same deal in Italy. If you step into the road they won't stop, just expect you to get out of the way yourself. There are a lot of little things like this that are taken for granted but you would be honestly shocked at how they're not "universal". Yes you should always act civilized when visiting another country, but your definition of civilized and theirs might be very different. To take another example, you might think that blowing your nose discreetly into a hanky is the polite thing to do, right? In Japan, it's seen as filthy, and is more accepted to spit or snort (which is technically the cleaner thing to do; the hanky thing is only really present in countries which have a history with the Black Plague, which could be spread by spitting). Take nothing for granted when it comes to foreign cultures; there's really no way of getting the hang of the little nuances of etiquette without living there.

I agree with you both, but france and Italy I thought these things exist in developing countries only.

speaking of left and right, when i came first to the UK, i have always got in the cars from the wrong side 

[mangaluva]

Thanks every one who answered my questions 

I've been reading this blog, http://1000thingsaboutjapan.blogspot.com/ and they mentioned "a vending machine dispensing warm bread in a can". Japan seems to be quite notorious for these vending machines. Does anybody know if there's a reason for this, or is it just "one of those things", like being able to deep-fry anything in Scotland?

All I can tell is that the Japanese love convenience.  (BTW, convenience stores in Japan RULE!  They have tonnes of great stuff, including delicious full meals.)

Of all the vending machines I saw in Japan, two stand out.  One was a vending machine for cut flowers.  I can't quite remember, but I think vase was included.  The other was for dirty magazines and underwear (yes, they sold underwear from the vending machine.  I don't know if it was previously used or not).  It had a shiny coating on the glass so during the day you couldn't see what was inside, but at night when the light behind the glass lit up, you could see the contents.  It was rather kimochi-warui (the Japanese word for icky) to see.

Shame, all what they showed in DC the machines that sell canned drinks and snacks 
dirty magazines and under wear  , but would not this create an access for children to these things easily??
or Japanese kids are well behaved that they wont even think to go near it!!

I'd have to disagree.  We often expect people to conform when they are in our country.  To give an example, lining up, or not cutting in line, is not a universal custom.  There are many places I've been where people don't line up, or it's normal for people to simply push their way into lines.  It's not necessarily rude or unexpected.  But when they visit a country where lining up is the norm, they are considered very rude and potentially unintelligent if they simply cut ahead.  The same could be said for expectations of dress codes and personal behaviours (such as picking one's nose).  There are things that are rude in one culture that are not in another, but in general, guests are expected to act according to the norms of the countries that they are visiting.

Actually, the lining up example is quite valid because a lot of civilized countries don't do it. Ever tried queueing for a bus in Italy? Have fun.  and it would seem a universally sensible thing to be able to cross the street when the green man is up without dying, but I can't tell you how often I nearly got run over when I visited France. Actually, it's pretty much the same deal in Italy. If you step into the road they won't stop, just expect you to get out of the way yourself. There are a lot of little things like this that are taken for granted but you would be honestly shocked at how they're not "universal". Yes you should always act civilized when visiting another country, but your definition of civilized and theirs might be very different. To take another example, you might think that blowing your nose discreetly into a hanky is the polite thing to do, right? In Japan, it's seen as filthy, and is more accepted to spit or snort (which is technically the cleaner thing to do; the hanky thing is only really present in countries which have a history with the Black Plague, which could be spread by spitting). Take nothing for granted when it comes to foreign cultures; there's really no way of getting the hang of the little nuances of etiquette without living there.

I agree with you both, but france and Italy I thought these things exist in developing countries only.

speaking of left and right, when i came first to the UK, i have always got in the cars from the wrong side 

The UK is oddly almost unique in driving on the left. It drives my mom insane.

I'm not joking about France or Italy either, the driving is frankly terrifying (and the parking too O_o) but on the other hand a lot of the more mediaeval-era towns and cities don't have a lot of roads built wide enough for cars, so loads of people walk, use mopeds, or- in Nice at least, this was absolutely brilliant- use Segways. We got to rent some there, it was amazing XD

[TheBlind]

Actually, the lining up example is quite valid because a lot of civilized countries don't do it. Ever tried queueing for a bus in Italy? Have fun.  and it would seem a universally sensible thing to be able to cross the street when the green man is up without dying, but I can't tell you how often I nearly got run over when I visited France. Actually, it's pretty much the same deal in Italy. If you step into the road they won't stop, just expect you to get out of the way yourself. There are a lot of little things like this that are taken for granted but you would be honestly shocked at how they're not "universal". Yes you should always act civilized when visiting another country, but your definition of civilized and theirs might be very different. To take another example, you might think that blowing your nose discreetly into a hanky is the polite thing to do, right? In Japan, it's seen as filthy, and is more accepted to spit or snort (which is technically the cleaner thing to do; the hanky thing is only really present in countries which have a history with the Black Plague, which could be spread by spitting). Take nothing for granted when it comes to foreign cultures; there's really no way of getting the hang of the little nuances of etiquette without living there.

But the problem with your example is that you are just extending C-square's points. Unless someone is regulating the line, you'll never see anyone line up for a bus or train anywhere that isn't a civilized setting. Being on the street waiting for a bus is not a civilized setting, so no civilized behavior would apply, it would be survival of the strong(get out of my way or I'll slap you with my umbrella). But if you are at a bus terminal, then you'll see people line up because that is considered a civilized setting and that setting being regulated has planted the behavior of properly lining up. But none of that matters as this example is:

So your example is apples to oranges as you are trying to compare a universal custom of civilized society that has appropriate places where it needs to be practiced to the customs of countries based on their culture that are always practiced.

Now your second example about the spitting or snorting is better but I disagree. There is a clear definition of what is civilized and what is uncivilized barring any religious customs in my opinion, it's when cultural preferences get thrown into the mix that it becomes difficult to sort it out. Someone trying to run you over while you are legally able to walk the street is uncivilized. Doesn't matter if it's okay in Italy, no one says "wow I glad that guy almost tried to run me over", that kind of behavior would be seen in a negative aspect and could be filed under uncivilized.

Now the spitting, that can also be seen as uncivilized as germs and virus are more dangerous when airborne. So spitting or snorting mucus actually increases the chances of you infection someone as though you might not see it, the bacteria/virus could stay airborne enough long enough to get on another individual. It also creates problems for children if they walk bare foot or touch the ground(children are children) and they get that on their hands. Using a napkin is seen as the more cleaner thing IF you wash you hands afterward and properly dispose of the napkin. It also prevents you from planting the evil image of you snorting in the mind of another individual  ;D. The point is to prevent the bacteria/virus from getting airborne, which is why they say to cover your mouth when you cough and etc. But I really don't see why we are discussing this  ;D, none of these examples are cultural based on my opinion. Instead we are actually going into a deep discussion of the nature of civilized behavior and uncivilized behavior which is another can of worms.

My main message was that it's not right to expect a visitor to conform to the way you act if they are respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening their mind to local practices, obeying rules/regulations, being polite, making an effort to understand at least the basics of the language, and etc. If they are doing all this, it is foolish to see them as lacking intelligence just because they won't conform to the parts that are culturally based. Imagine a scenario where you visit a friend and while in his/her house you are expected to act like you are part of their culture while suppressing yours during the stay, wouldn't make you want to stay long. This is why I say YES to globalization, mix all the cultures up, mix all the world economies up, mix everything up until every country is dependent and accepting of the other. *Runs out topic yelling globalization*

[TheBlind]

Uhm...
Well, I'll try to give a valid example. But I can't decide which argument it supports^^

In Munich's escalators - unlike almost every German city (normally there is no order) - it's usual to "stand on the right, walk on the left". It's something very typical for Munich; 2 years ago, our class went to Berlin, and of course everyone did only use the right half of the escalator, building a looong line. While travelling down a Berliner passed by and said (well, in German of course^^): "You are from Munich, aren't you?".

Therefore, if someone is standing on the left side of the escalator in Munich, he is almost sure not to be a Münchner (there is no English term, so I'm using the German :-P) - the only other possibility is someone not caring about this "rule", but that almost only happens among youths.
However, normally this behaviour is accepted with a silent sigh (although everyone is angered), only someone who's in a hurry might shout or push his way through.

Well, which side am I arguing for now?

Here in the "West" we stand on the right. You are also right about the youth point, took me until High School when a friend pointed it out to me that I was being rude by standing on the left behind someone who was standing on the right as it blocked the path of others. It's not a cultural custom though, everyone does it with the understanding that you are allowing the person behind you to rush up the stairs and I believe it applies to everyone around the world that practices it. And if you are in someone's way aka not practicing it, you aren't shun, they respond with the civilized behavior of saying "pardon" and usually the person responds by moving and apologizing.

..If anyone is wondering the uncivilized behavior in that situation would be punching someone in the face, never seen it happen but part of me knows it has happen somewhere.

[c-square]

My main message was that it's not right to expect a visitor to conform to the way you act if they are respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening their mind to local practices, obeying rules/regulations, being polite, making an effort to understand at least the basics of the language, and etc. If they are doing all this, it is foolish to see them as lacking intelligence just because they won't conform to the parts that are culturally based.

I agree, though I would argue that by respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening one's mind to local practices, and obeying rules/regulations, one would be conforming to the cultural norms. 

Imagine a scenario where you visit a friend and while in his/her house you are expected to act like you are part of their culture while suppressing yours during the stay, wouldn't make you want to stay long.

Here, I disagree.  If you are visiting a house in Japan, it is the cultural norm to remove one's shoes at the door and wear slippers when inside the house.  A foreigner is expected to do the same.  If a foreigner were to simply walk all over a house with his/her shoes on, a Japanese person would rightfully consider the foreigner either ignorant of the rules of Japanese society, or simply too rude to care about following them.  An argument by the foreigner that the removal of his/her shoes would constitute a suppression of his or her culture wouldn't go very far with the homeowner.

[GinRei]

Here, I disagree.  If you are visiting a house in Japan, it is the cultural norm to remove one's shoes at the door and wear slippers when inside the house.  A foreigner is expected to do the same.  If a foreigner were to simply walk all over a house with his/her shoes on, a Japanese person would rightfully consider the foreigner either ignorant of the rules of Japanese society, or simply too rude to care about following them.  An argument by the foreigner that the removal of his/her shoes would constitute a suppression of his or her culture wouldn't go very far with the homeowner.

Hell, forget Japan.  I've made people take their shoes off before coming in my house since 2004.  Easier to clean that way.

[TheBlind]

My main message was that it's not right to expect a visitor to conform to the way you act if they are respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening their mind to local practices, obeying rules/regulations, being polite, making an effort to understand at least the basics of the language, and etc. If they are doing all this, it is foolish to see them as lacking intelligence just because they won't conform to the parts that are culturally based.

I agree, though I would argue that by respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening one's mind to local practices, and obeying rules/regulations, one would be conforming to the cultural norms.  

I don't believe so. You can obey the laws(rules and regulations) and be understanding of local practices but that doesn't mean you are conforming. Just because you have done the appropriate thing and put effort to become aware of the culture around you doesn't mean you necessarily have to practice it. That is where you and I disagree.

Here, I disagree.  If you are visiting a house in Japan, it is the cultural norm to remove one's shoes at the door and wear slippers when inside the house.  A foreigner is expected to do the same.  If a foreigner were to simply walk all over a house with his/her shoes on, a Japanese person would rightfully consider the foreigner either ignorant of the rules of Japanese society, or simply too rude to care about following them.  An argument by the foreigner that the removal of his/her shoes would constitute a suppression of his or her culture wouldn't go very far with the homeowner.

But here is the problem, what about if in my culture(it's not), removing your shoes outside of your home is seen negatively?
So it's okay for the Japanese person to claim I am ignorant of their culture but yet they chose to disregard mine and act ignorant towards it?

Are you actually saying that the host should control everything and if the guest wants to visit he has to confirm in every regards? That paints the host as an ignorant dictator.

A Japanese immigrant person wouldn't like if I looked negatively on them because they removed their shoes inside my house without asking me or I declared that they could not remove their shoes in my house and they are ignorant for even asking me that. This is my point, people should always try to find middle ground and be open minded when interacting with each other. You cannot expect everyone to conform to your ways because they are in your country, you are actually denying yourself the experience of learning something different. It also just leads to the misinterpretation of that country and its people(aka xenophobic, fear of change, fastidious individuals).

And just to be clear my argument isn't against Japan, it's against the concept of cultural confirming while visiting a country.

[GinRei]

Are you actually saying that the host should control everything and if the guest wants to visit he has to confirm in every regards? That paints the host as an ignorant dictator.

A guest should be respectful towards one's host(s).  While it's not generally expected to conform to all standards and practices right off the bat, effort should be made to at least conform to the ones that don't conflict with one's own values.

[Misztina]

"If you are in Rome, behave like a Roman." We have this saying, which is quite clear about this matter.
If you visit another country you are expected to respect their life-styles, since you are the visitor and it is their hometown. Of course the locals have to accept the fact that you as a foreigner might not know everything. Respect and tolerance. Should be the right way.

[kkslider5552000]

I'm loling at The Blind taking this super seriously.

[TheBlind]

Are you actually saying that the host should control everything and if the guest wants to visit he has to confirm in every regards? That paints the host as an ignorant dictator.

A guest should be respectful towards one's host(s).  While it's not generally expected to conform to all standards and practices right off the bat, effort should be made to at least conform to the ones that don't conflict with one's own values.

Exactly. This is what I have been saying.

"If you are in Rome, behave like a Roman." We have this saying, which is quite clear about this matter.
If you visit another country you are expected to respect their life-styles, since you are the visitor and it is their hometown. Of course the locals have to accept the fact that you as a foreigner might not know everything. Respect and tolerance. Should be the right way.

I don't agree with this, and eye for an eye leaves everyone .......Blind, . Like I have been saying on my soapbox for a while, someone can respect person's life-style but may not be able to conform to that life-style. "If you are in Rome, behave like a Roman." implies that you must conform to that life-style and to me, that sends a negative message. Like I said before, I'm a heavy believer of globalization and "If you are in Rome, behave like a Roman." forces the notion that "my way of life is the only way and you must adapt if you want to leave your setting to enter mine".

[TheBlind]

I'm loling at The Blind taking this super seriously.

I'm loling at the fact that you are missing that a good discussion is taking place because you are to busy loling at me.

[Abs.]

I'm loling at the fact that my culture requires ritual slaughter and a different loli for every day of the week.  For me.  I don't care what you people do.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'm loling at the fact that my culture requires ritual slaughter and a different loli for every day of the week.  For me.  I don't care what you people do.

So you're loling at late lolis in Tlatelolco lolling like landed loligos?

[mangaluva]

My overall opinion is that what is "civilized" changes from culture to culture, and I think it's only polite to try to observe another culture's customs while you're in their country; however, if a foreigner is unaware of a custom, you shouldn't hold it against them. Just explain it to them.

(BTW, what on earth does "an eye for an eye" have to do with "when in Rome, do as the Romans do?" O_o I know the wording's similar, but one is to do with crime and justice and the other to do with culture and customs.)