Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

[MDavid]

For MDavid's riddle ,
[spoiler]
Maybe....
Setup :
Initially ,before the window was opened the shutter was fully closed ,shutter string attached to bowling ball
which was outside hanging .The shutter was down because it was tied with a string and string stuck between
the window and frame due to friction .The position of this string is same as that of the shutter string .It is this
string which was coated with gunpowder or something which lights up like a matchstick when rubbed & since its
in same position the ashes will fall right below the shutter string when burned .Since the building is tall people wouldn't
notice a bowling ball hanging outside a window .

Now the victim receives phone call and opens the window ,instantaneously burning and releasing the string that kept the
shutter down and hence the ball starts to fall .The falling ball will pull the shutter string ,pulling the shutter up with great force.
I'm assuming the shutter has long wooden boards (from the fig) or at least a solid strong part at the bottom of the shutter
which hits the victims jaws .The sudden upward twist/force produced by the blow breaks the neck and the victim falls .The string
on the shutter burns away completely .When the shutter hits the maximum top position ,the string that attached the ball
snaps and it falls down .

Conan, Ran and Kogoro were heading home, walking down a peaceful street. Sound of blow to jaw broke the silence.
Suddenly the bowling ball crashed into the ground next to them and then the mobile phone.

The victim could see the shutter coming up and may move to avoid lethal injury ,but he may be an acrophobic and kind of
closed his eyes while opening the window since the building is tall .

[/spoiler]

Another good one, but still not the answer.

[spoiler]Yes, it was the shutter. But in another way. And the bowling ball was really used to pull up the shutter. It shouldn't be too hard now. [/spoiler]

[sstimson]

There is only One way I can think that might break the victims neck and it is very unlikely

[spoiler]The victim puts their neck between blinds. I have seen blinds that are "foldable" as in you could move the upper and lower section to form a square, then place the neck in that square. But 1) why would anyone do that? You normally can see what you need through the square 2) as these blinds as not very strong (I am think Venetian), I am not sure this kind of blind could break a neck[/spoiler]

[MDavid]

There is only One way I can think that might break the victims neck and it is very unlikely

[spoiler]The victim puts their neck between blinds. I have seen blinds that are "foldable" as in you could move the upper and lower section to form a square, then place the neck in that square. But 1) why would anyone do that? You normally can see what you need through the square 2) as these blinds as not very strong (I am think Venetian), I am not sure this kind of blind could break a neck[/spoiler]

It would really be unlikely. Also, it is not a Venetian but an old rolling shutter. You all come up with very good tricks, but the solution is a bit more simple.

[sstimson]

surely you are not thinking
[spoiler] of a guillotine like trick.1)I do not think tape by it self could keep the bowling ball from closing the shutter. 2) again why would someone stick their neck out. 3) why cut the string? Ever a thin string would likely break from holding that kind of force at bay[/spoiler]

[MDavid]

surely you are not thinking
[spoiler] of a guillotine like trick.1)I do not think tape by it self could keep the bowling ball from closing the shutter. 2) again why would someone stick their neck out. 3) why cut the string? Ever a thin string would likely break from holding that kind of force at bay[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Exactly! But the bowling ball has nothing to do with the tape. And there is a reason for sticking out the neck. The string was not cut but burnt, it was already deduced (mostly). And yes, the string couldn't hold the bowling ball. Think a little bit more, you may get the method! You have all the main parts now, just put them together and you will see. [/spoiler]

[sstimson]

surely you are not thinking
[spoiler] of a guillotine like trick.1)I do not think tape by it self could keep the bowling ball from closing the shutter. 2) again why would someone stick their neck out. 3) why cut the string? Ever a thin string would likely break from holding that kind of force at bay[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Exactly! But the bowling ball has nothing to do with the tape. And there is a reason for sticking out the neck. The string was not cut but burnt, it was already deduced (mostly). And yes, the string couldn't hold the bowling ball. Think a little bit more, you may get the method! [/spoiler]

theory

[spoiler]
two strings for lack of a better word (maybe fishing line) One is for holding the hold the bowling ball. The other is to hold the shutter up. The bowling ball is trying to pull it down. The string holding the shutter is setup to light a match when the victim leans over the open window. That match will burn through the string holding the shutter back. The phone would fall outside because at the time it is outside. The string on the bowling ball breaks when it (the shutter) hits the victim due to force on the ball wanting to continue moving down. For some unknown reason the caller(murderer) has the victim stick their neck out the window.
[/spoiler]

anything else?

[MDavid]

Close enough.  ;)

[spoiler=Solution]
The culprit called the victim on his mobile phone and directed him to open the window. When the window opened, the matchbox that was taped to the frame lit on fire the match that was attached to the string. Also, when the victim opened the window he knocked over the bowling ball that was resting on the stool. He sticked out his neck to see it falling. In the meantime the string broke because of the fire and the shutter fell on the victim's neck breaking it. The victim dropped the phone. The shutter pulled up the string quickly, extinguishing the fire. The match and the other part of the string fell on the floor and burned away leaving ashes. The bowling ball's string was attached to the shutter the same way as it's original string. When the ball reached a certain depth, it pulled up the shutter to it's highest position where it can hold it's own weight, then the string broke and fell down with the ball. At this time the victim was no longer fixed by the shutter and fell back on the floor. The matchbox fell off the window's frame after it was opened.
[/spoiler]

Your turn.

[sstimson]

Close enough.  ;)

[spoiler=Solution]
The culprit called the victim on his mobile phone and directed him to open the window. When the window opened, the matchbox that was taped to the frame lit on fire the match that was attached to the string. Also, when the victim opened the window he knocked over the bowling ball that was resting on the stool. He sticked out his neck to see it falling. In the meantime the string broke because of the fire and the shutter fell on the victim's neck breaking it. The victim dropped the phone. The shutter pulled up the string quickly, extinguishing the fire. The match and the other part of the string fell on the floor and burned away leaving ashes. The bowling ball's string was attached to the shutter the same way as it's original string. When the ball reached a certain depth, it pulled up the shutter to it's highest position where it can hold it's own weight, then the string broke and fell down with the ball. At this time the victim was no longer fixed by the shutter and fell back on the floor. The matchbox fell off the window's frame after it was opened.
[/spoiler]

Your turn.

And that is where we are going to likely to agree to disagree. I do not believe you can use the same thing you used to pull down that you used to pull up. As I see it the string broke when the shutter hit the bottom. You are suggesting other wise.

One problem that I  see, returning the shutter to the top. Physics does not allow the same force that moved something down to move it up as well. It might bounce, but that be about it. I would  say a third string, but that again would keep the shutter where it started.

let me spoiler other problems

[spoiler] you said the ball was knocked over the bowling ball sitting on the stool. But in order for the ball to fall outside the stool would also have to be outside. And what is keeping the stool from falling as it too would need to be outside as well.

I might buy knocking the ball off a window sill.

We still would need some kind of spring force to bring the shutter back up. Maybe a bungee cord, though that might not work as it pull might counter act the ball force. A spring might work as long as it only springs back after the ball 'string' breaks.

Which brings us back to the string. Too weak string, and the ball will fall breaking the string at once. Too strong and it will counter the spring. Maybe this one is cut/burned as well.

My theory makes your burning string pointless unless it is to break the string after the shutter has hit bottom. The ball must be connected to the shutter pulling it down. As the ball starts at rest, the spring holds the shutter open. When the ball falls the ball exerts a force on the shutter and pulls it down. I believe your burning thing must cut this string only after the shutter has fallen to its lowest point. the spring then pulls it back up.

Do you understand my point about this part?

The burning part could really only happen when the shutter reaches the lowest point. A cutting action might be easier here. The shutter might have a small section where a cutting blade is and it cuts the string holding the ball.

When the ball reached a certain depth, it pulled up the shutter to it's highest position where it can hold it's own weight,

This is the part I can not see. you start by using the ball to hold the shutter open, then you cut the string to make the shutter fall (under its own weight I guess). But now that the string is cut so why would the shutter come back?

Also think about this: you got the ball opening the shutter and it is falling (a pulley system), but that would counter the falling shutter.

My method has a chance. All starts at rest and the spring holds open the shutter. The ball at this time is exerting no force on the shutter. So at the start the only force is the spring holding the shutter open. Now we knock the ball off the window sill. A part of the string is in a place where the shutter section which has a blade will cut it. (think of guillotine cutting a carrot). Before the string is cut we have two forces. The first the spring hold the shutter up. Now we have the force of the ball pulling the shutter down (greater then gravity alone) and also greater then the force of the spring holding the shutter open. Thus the shutter comes crashing down, breaking the victim's neck. then we get the string being cut and thus the forces go back to start and the shutter moves up since the force of the spring pulls it up. The force of the ball on the shutter no longer exist and thus there is now no force pulling the shutter down.

I think a fishing line (replace the above string with that) could hold the weight of a bowling ball, which something like a thread, or twine would break before the shutter could be pulled down. But as far as I know, fishing line does not burn. But you can cut it.

A rope which might be able to hold the bowling ball would take a while to burn through and your trick requires almost instant timing. A slowly burning rope would give the trick away and the kind which might burn fast can not hold the weight.

[/spoiler]

Your trick is definitely a Conan trick (works in the Conan world but not the real one).

Try again, and if you want to make sure this time your trick is real world, just PM me. In other words you are still up.  :)

[Kogorou]

Don't forget the release of "Williams and Borner - The missing needle" by the end of the month
My motors are working at full speed to get it done.

[sstimson]

I will wait and then critique you. It might be more fun (at least for me) finding the holes in your method.     

[MDavid]

Close enough. 

[spoiler=Solution]
The culprit called the victim on his mobile phone and directed him to open the window. When the window opened, the matchbox that was taped to the frame lit on fire the match that was attached to the string. Also, when the victim opened the window he knocked over the bowling ball that was resting on the stool. He sticked out his neck to see it falling. In the meantime the string broke because of the fire and the shutter fell on the victim's neck breaking it. The victim dropped the phone. The shutter pulled up the string quickly, extinguishing the fire. The match and the other part of the string fell on the floor and burned away leaving ashes. The bowling ball's string was attached to the shutter the same way as it's original string. When the ball reached a certain depth, it pulled up the shutter to it's highest position where it can hold it's own weight, then the string broke and fell down with the ball. At this time the victim was no longer fixed by the shutter and fell back on the floor. The matchbox fell off the window's frame after it was opened.
[/spoiler]

Your turn.

And that is where we are going to likely to agree to disagree. I do not believe you can use the same thing you used to pull down that you used to pull up. As I see it the string broke when the shutter hit the bottom. You are suggesting other wise.

One problem that I  see, returning the shutter to the top. Physics does not allow the same force that moved something down to move it up as well. It might bounce, but that be about it. I would  say a third string, but that again would keep the shutter where it started.

let me spoiler other problems

[spoiler] you said the ball was knocked over the bowling ball sitting on the stool. But in order for the ball to fall outside the stool would also have to be outside. And what is keeping the stool from falling as it too would need to be outside as well.

I might buy knocking the ball off a window sill.

We still would need some kind of spring force to bring the shutter back up. Maybe a bungee cord, though that might not work as it pull might counter act the ball force. A spring might work as long as it only springs back after the ball 'string' breaks.

Which brings us back to the string. Too weak string, and the ball will fall breaking the string at once. Too strong and it will counter the spring. Maybe this one is cut/burned as well.

My theory makes your burning string pointless unless it is to break the string after the shutter has hit bottom. The ball must be connected to the shutter pulling it down. As the ball starts at rest, the spring holds the shutter open. When the ball falls the ball exerts a force on the shutter and pulls it down. I believe your burning thing must cut this string only after the shutter has fallen to its lowest point. the spring then pulls it back up.

Do you understand my point about this part?

The burning part could really only happen when the shutter reaches the lowest point. A cutting action might be easier here. The shutter might have a small section where a cutting blade is and it cuts the string holding the ball.

When the ball reached a certain depth, it pulled up the shutter to it's highest position where it can hold it's own weight,

This is the part I can not see. you start by using the ball to hold the shutter open, then you cut the string to make the shutter fall (under its own weight I guess). But now that the string is cut so why would the shutter come back?

Also think about this: you got the ball opening the shutter and it is falling (a pulley system), but that would counter the falling shutter.

My method has a chance. All starts at rest and the spring holds open the shutter. The ball at this time is exerting no force on the shutter. So at the start the only force is the spring holding the shutter open. Now we knock the ball off the window sill. A part of the string is in a place where the shutter section which has a blade will cut it. (think of guillotine cutting a carrot). Before the string is cut we have two forces. The first the spring hold the shutter up. Now we have the force of the ball pulling the shutter down (greater then gravity alone) and also greater then the force of the spring holding the shutter open. Thus the shutter comes crashing down, breaking the victim's neck. then we get the string being cut and thus the forces go back to start and the shutter moves up since the force of the spring pulls it up. The force of the ball on the shutter no longer exist and thus there is now no force pulling the shutter down.

I think a fishing line (replace the above string with that) could hold the weight of a bowling ball, which something like a thread, or twine would break before the shutter could be pulled down. But as far as I know, fishing line does not burn. But you can cut it.

A rope which might be able to hold the bowling ball would take a while to burn through and your trick requires almost instant timing. A slowly burning rope would give the trick away and the kind which might burn fast can not hold the weight.

[/spoiler]

Your trick is definitely a Conan trick (works in the Conan world but not the real one).

Try again, and if you want to make sure this time your trick is real world, just PM me. In other words you are still up. 

No.

1. When i said stool, i meant sill. I looked it up in a dictionary. I didn't mean a chair.

2. The shutter was not pulled down by the ball. I never said that. It was pulled down by it's own weight after the rope burned.

[sstimson]

Then please explain how #2 could happen. You got the shutter coming down, but then you say it is pulled up. Do you mean there is a lot of slack in the rope. If so then even more your trick will not work. I will try find out a way to you show that and why.

Here is part of it.

Your example has the shutter falling due to it own weight. Force(f)= mass(sh) x acceleration(g)or F(S)=shg
my example Force =Mass({bowling ball Mass(BM) + Shutter Mass (sh)}) x acceleration(g) or F(S+B) =(M(s)+M(b))g

my example has the greater force in that it has greater mass. Both due to gravity will fall as the same rate but your example and mine both have a another factor inertia. Your example has it moving of its own weight taking longer to get started because of friction. My example has the added force of the falling bowling ball to help counter both friction and inertia. Thus my example will move quicker as it has more help to over come the problems of both inertia and friction. This is because it has both the force of the Shutter falling on ins own weight and the force of the ball falling.

You might be forgetting the reaction time. Your example might give time to get out of the way. Mine does not take as long to happen and thus the time to react is shorter.



Reserved for a example of the above and the problems with the physics involved.

[MDavid]

Yes, there is a very lot of slack in the string between the ball and the shutter so there is enough time for the other string to burn and the shutter to fall before it's pulled up. I can see it happening, but is it impossible?

[sstimson]

As you seem to be more or a drawer then me, could you please draw both ways, so maybe I can see your method. I have no question about my method working. It is yours I wonder about. Also I added to my note, you might have missed some of the physics involved, please reread.

[MDavid]

It is possible that your solution is better in some ways, but as I see mine also works and in this case this is what matters. Even if it's not 100% failproof, but most of the tricks aren't. Okay, I will try to draw it in steps, but I have something to do now, so it will take a bit longer.