Kleene Onigiri wrote:
Well, Schillok shouldn't have been figured out actually, since I as Anokata ordered someone else to do the killing. But since I forgot the scenario or something, Callid used Schilloks order. Although imo, that's against the rules
He said if he had used mine, Yusaku would have figured out the culprit too, since there was no scenario given. But since it didn't make a difference, since Schilloks scenario was the same as yusakus, Callid should have used my order instead.
Kleene Onigiri wrote:
Killing: Breva kills Dus
Also, since I dunno if the others would want a different target, I allow the others to overwrite my order. Tho the ranking of the others should be kept and I can also change their change if it's ok
As you said yourself, I should take someone else's order if they'd issue an order of their own (which was the case). So, you yourself permitted me to do so
Second, I mustn't let my decision on your killing orders be affected by what CTU did or didn't. I have to rule which way to go as far as the killing is concerned. Or do you want to imply that I simply should read your orders as beneficial for you as possible? So, if CTU does the same, and simply says "Someone kills someone.", should I say "Yes, that's right, here is your information."? Making a GM decision on which way to choose may not be influenced by anything but the game rules and the orders about that specific critical point.
The whole thing was also further complicated by Schillok's PM:
Schillok wrote:
(...) Furthermore, in case Kleene does not give any orders before deadline I will go out myself to kill Dus (by shooting him/her in the back of his/her head once he/she leaves his/her home).
But of course if the Boss has other ideas I will follow them. ::)
So, both of them asked me to take the other one's order in case there'd be one, but to choose theirs in case something went wrong. So, basically, the questionb was whether an incomplete order should be considered an order or not, and if it was to be considered one, how it should be handled with CTU's ability.
On top of that, I didn't really decide on that to begin with. I first consulted a few RL Mafia players I know about the situation, and all of them agreed that basically any choice would be just as justified as the others. As I agreed on that, I decided not to decide, but to actually
role a dice to determine the outcome (which I already told you, BTW), with
1,2 - No killing ("highest" order not correct)
3,4 - Schillok's order (only complete one)
5,6 - Kleene's order ("highest" order incomplete, so Yusaku is automatically right)
I rolled a 4, so I went with Schillok's scenario.
Now tell me, Kleene, which one should I have chosen? Yours? So, whenever anyone issues an incomplete order, I should take it, even if it gives them massive penalty? None? So, whenever anyone issues an incomplete order, I should completely ignore it? Or the one I chose randomly - whenever anyone issues an incomplete order, yet allows someone else to overwrite it, and that one issues a correct order, while stating I should prefer the original one?
Also, I gave a scenario afterward, but it was after the deadline. But Callid didn't took the deadlinesseriously anyway imo. Given that he posted the phase change hours/days later and even PMed the night results first before posting the Phase change...
You seem to not understand the difference between a deadline, a phase change, and the new-day-post. The deadline is the point when every needs to have issued their orders (which you hadn't - which, BTW, is why I always told you to give in your orders early and
change them, if appropriate - the whole episode would have been avoided if you, after, let's say, two days, had sent me your orders, so you had, after my reply, had 5 days to add a killing scenario). The phase change is the time between then and the start of the next phase (which, with the Slow Motion ruling, may last between a few seconds and 24 hours). The new-day-post (originally) meant the end of phase change. That was, however, changed for Slow-Motion as it turned out to be impractical. By now, it's simply the first sign of results and is issued sometime during phase change. BTW, noone ever noticed that, in the one really serious case, anyone could have read the dead one in the first post, where he was already stroked through.
Giving us additional APTX after the town killed/figured out all BOs that were able to infiltrate the town doesn't help the BO either. But there wasn't anything else Callid could have done at that point :/
I actually did something else - I basically broke the rule and changed Anokata's ability, so that the power of the BS now belonged to the leader instead to the character Anokata, as it was - and still is - stated by the
Roles.
Not to the rules/roles:
The rules were changed so much that the BO had a BIG disadvantage.
Town side:
Yusaku's insight... was already removed in the other rounds. Because figuring out Anokata with a question is just too easy. Especially in this version, where anokata can't do anything besides being Immune to following and interrogation. He can't do anything else!
Describe is a nice idea. But there are no real boundaries. The GM can decide on his own if it's good enough or not. I made a ridiculous scenario where a a sniper snipes a beehive which then falls on the victims head (which in the end made Akonyl a suspect XD I didn't thought about akonyl back then XD I just hurried to make a scenario, since Callid didn't accept another greate and awesome scenario.... for whatever reason...)
Actually, while it may seem easy to figure out Anokata that way, it's just, IMO, too risky. After all, you have a 98% chance of failing (and Yusaku can only use this action once!). At that point I actually started to think that some BO is cheating and, against his role, helping the town side by making suggestion to CTU, and I actually thought about a BO-PM, telling you that you shouldn't cheat
That's the incredible luck I mentioned above.
I actually considered the question "Is XXX a BO?" much stronger, and I'm still not sure if that action is simply to strong. On the other hand, it's only a little stronger than Ai's ability, and can only used once, so
Perhaps there should be something like a 16.6% likeliness for the result to be wrong
Then there is Yukiko.
Befriend seems to be too strong now that I see the data. She picked out a lot of townies and got the GM PMs from them too then. What is better prove than a GM PM? SO she can make a lot of allies fast, till she finds a BO. That BO is probably dead meat then (and yukiko too). But the Town alliance will stay.
You're only half right here - the BO is likely safe, as Yuriko will simply never receive a PM about him if she's APTXed the next day. Not to mention that the befriended one does not necessarily have to take any action anyway, if he's Tequila, for example
Also, if you compare her to Sonoko, her ability is IMO almost weaker, as a very high risk is involved. But well, I have no problem with weakening that ability by issuing, for example, a 50% likeliness of failing
Mask is a nice idea
But as a BO.... you can never know if that person is masked or not. Making the decision to APTX kinda risky for the BO. And it's not (usually) easy to APTX someone.
Tho it's not bad. Depends if you wanna nerve the APTX chances for the BO. Meaning that they have to be more careful. But the ability stacking is too much imo :V Better without it.
Don't forget that mask is a one-time use! If Yukiko is without any ability afterwards, she can do literally nothing at all - which is, IMO,
really boring.
Kazuha:
Her protection charm is a bit too strong, when you are immune to APTX forever.
Actually, that's what nightly killings are for, especially sniping - or bombing.
Not sure how much matuda helped the town.
I don't know either. So, guys and girls out there, did he help you?
BO side:
Tequilas bombing.... is totally useless that way.
Basically it's a nice idea. But the BO will die too, meaning you don't use it till your cover is blown... But... you wont know that you cover was blown on a night phase! Meaning you will notice on a day phase. And bombing is a night action. So, when your cover is blown, you can't use it anyway.
(and giving us less BO, less APTX and a suicide bomber is kinda mean D: Especially when the GMs decision could have saved anokata and vermouth)
I've thought about that as well, and decided to count Tequila only half when calculating BO vs. Town.
Irish:
Frighten, well, day action now. Better for the BO actually
But abducting.... when Irish dies, the town will get the abducted person back? So, you can't let irish use the bombing, otherwise the town would have gotten the police officer back...
Yeah, I'm still not sure about that one
Well, that action was supposed to be weak anyway. An idea I had was to allow Irish to abduct anyone at any point during the game, so, if the BO is in need for an identity, Irish can create one
Gin:
Got his investigate reduced by 1, for whatever reason. While the chance that a town get's masked is higher and that the investigation would have stacked D:
Well, Gin is very good at investigating, but IMO not as good as Conan. So, -1. Not to mention that slandering is quite strong by itself anyway (or rather, the possibility that it might have been used)
(...) But I still don't like insight, the ability, in general D:
I actually thought a lot about what ability Yusaku should get, as his in-story abilities are simply incredible, but would be a game breaker if used 1 to 1.
Kleene Onigiri wrote:
Callid wrote:
Schillok wrote:
Well, this was pretty one-sided. I guess the town did well this time, though.
Actually, seeing both sides, I have to say that the main reason for this result was the BO playing terrible. After all, the practically had 10 APTX, yet barely managed to kill anyone with them. Also, the town got really lucky with a few things, like finding out you.
Terrible? Are you serious?
We had:
Anokata, Vermouth, Irish, Korn, Tequila.
Because of your decisions as a GM, Vermouth and Anokata were killed off early. The only two roles in that group that can find out town roles without getting interrogated and killed or with an ability (here investigate and interrogate from vermouth).
How do you want the other roles to find out roles? Especially since the town was already in a huge alliance/trusted some people already? Also since Kazuha was immune and got some allies?
The BO can't play great when the GM doesn't let them.
As far as my decisions are concerned, see above.
And yes, I think you did.
1) Issuing orders in the last minute. I don't think I have to add anything here
2) WTH did Schillok use "interrogate"? Only for the (approx.) 0.1% likeliness of choosing Sherry? (20 players; 40 roles; likeliness of Yuriko being in game x likeliness of Yuriko to choose Sherry x likeliness of Yuriko to choose target = 0.5x1/40x1/20 = 0.000625) Investigate 5 would have been MUCH better.
3) After it was clear that xpon was Kazuha, why frighten him? He can only lower one's vote by one (cancelling the frightening happens naturally if you frighten him, after all
), and choosing, for example, Haibara, would have been a lot stronger.
4) But most importantly, most of you never voted! Now that will clearly make you appear suspicious, guys!
Schillok wrote:
Callid wrote:
Actually, seeing both sides, I have to say that the main reason for this result was the BO playing terrible. After all, the practically had 10 APTX, yet barely managed to kill anyone with them. Also, the town got really lucky with a few things, like finding out you.
Since I died so early I don't know how the BO continued to play after day 1. Though, just by reading the thread I was not able to find out what kind of roles the other players were. Except for xpon obviously, who was permanently immune to the APTX because of his role and using the charm.
Except he never was, he was simply bluffing
- which was, BTW, brilliant.
Yuriko received the charm very early on
Without information using the APTX blind will usually just fail and waste a precious capsule that might be needed in the end.
There are some things that could be done better I guess. We never used the bomb, though that was probably because we lost so many of us right in the start that the BO could not afford to sacrifice another hoping to take some townies with them.
There were probably better ways to play, but since the BO was under so much pressure right from the start - and because of the advantages the long time between phases give for communication - it would have been pretty hard to find the right strategy in time.
I agree.
Yusakus murder scenario: "Victim gets shot in the head in their home."
My killing: "Shoot the victim in the back of their head in front of their home".
Also, even if you had said that you had shot him in the heart while he was leaving the house, I had still accepted it, as CTU had still gotten two out of three things right: Shooting (method) + home (general location) vs. heart/head (cause of death).
If you calculate the likeliness of him being right with that to begin with, you'll realize why I had decided to count it. But as we had shooting (method) + home (general location) + head (cause of death) anyway, I found it pretty clear that CTU was right enough.
in the home = Inside location
in front of their home = Outside location
There is a huge difference IMO.[/quote]
Well, if you compare that to "in the office", "in the forest", "at the harbour" or "in the subway", it's very, very close IMO.
Actually, that was exactly the point. I didn't want the boring, standard killing scenarios, but strange ones. After all, many killing scenarios in DC are also very strange. That you used a default killing scenario was a clear mistake, that surprised my to begin with.
Because actually I did not plan to do the killing myself anyway. It was just the back-up submission in case Anokata forgot to submit his/her orders.
It was you who decided to not use Anokatas orders because they were missing the murder scenario.
Yes, we would have lost one of us anyway. Still. Killing with a gun (which was the only thing Yusaku got right) - no, wait: Killing by shooting the target was the only thing that Yusaku got correct. The other things were close, but debatable.
I think "shooting in the back of the head" means that someone is shot in the head, IMO. Unless your back of the head is somewhere else than your head, of course.
And finally: We are talking about the Black Organisation here. Their primary weapon ARE guns. And I didn't like getting punished for staying in character with my role (Vermouth had always be using guns so far) instead of using clowns to trample my victim to death so I can avoid being detected by a role who I didn't know from if it was in the game anyway...
You can also use guns in many different ways (for example, shooting a tire of a driving car...), locations (e.g. subway) or
times (dawn, midnight etc.), and you can aim at different body parts (head, heart, lung etc.). Not to mention that they also used poisons (duh), bombs (duh), chloroform (Pisco case) and knives (Live-Action 2).
The main reason it became a little, well, slow, was because the town basically had a list of BO suspects they worked down, and each person on the list was indeed a BO, so the leaders never got questioned. As you might have noticed, there hasn't been a single word of discussion in the last two day phases
Well, it was worth a try I guess. Though, from my point of view this much time between phases was too much.
I know this from my own game - there is one point when the town reaches critical mass and just wins. How soon it happens depends on luck and how well both sides play. Again, there is nothing wrong with it. What I was complaining about is that - despite the town lynching a BO every day - the game carried on for 3 months. This is very slow. Especially for someone who gets killed early and has to wait everything out.
That was actually the reason I introduced Matusda. I meant the deads to tell him nearly everything they know about the living, and, as they can now all trust each other, they together figuring out everything. However, as far as I can tell, Dus was the only one who ever did so.
Kleene Onigiri wrote:
I also thin 1 week is a bit too much. Especially when people forget about the game (even the GM did :x). And most do their orders/talking at the end of the week anyway.
I think 3 days would be a bit better. But maybe I'm just not suited for such a long phase.
Rule/role wise, the town had a advantage.
Three days would probably still be too much for me. I think the main reason that game was so long was the town figuring out basically everything very early on, and also most active players getting eliminated early on as well
And I still think that saying that anyone had an advantage when the game started is not right. Mistakes were made, and, to be honest, CTU and xpon simply played great. Later on, breva did as well, but that was definitely too late then.
breva wrote:
Kleene has a point there, 10 APTX aren't useful if you can't get town roles, on our last attempts we had to guess!
That's right, but I think the question here is - why did you have so few information to begin with?
Irish:
But abducting.... when Irish dies, the town will get the abducted person back? So, you can't let irish use the bombing, otherwise the town would have gotten the police officer back...
^
I had to find a way to not be lynched before to avoid that a player who could have information about the remaining BOs came back
You haven't read the description closely. It says that not the last dead will come back, but the next won't die. That's a huge difference.
And I didn't like Matsuda not being able to post, it made very obvious who he was
That was the intention. It was supposed to be clear after a few phases
Kleene Onigiri wrote:
Since I was dead I wonder. Did the BO get any hints or dreams? I think they didn't, right? :V
They didn't, except for the one I gave publicly on Sato's death. Which, BTW, said: "ai = meme+meitantei tommi = koi", revealing the lover's pairing.
breva wrote:
The only kinda hint I remember is that Yukiko could be masked as Yusaku so we had to continue making weird killing methods
That was actually not a hint, but me not wanting to indirectly state that that wasn't the case, which I had if had agreed on you not having to specify the method.
nomemory wrote:
If people are interested in a new slow mafia I could consider GMing it, unless someone else really wants to do it. But if I do the phase will be shorter, 2-4 days depending on what people prefer and I will use the rules from the current round of mafia, but there will probably be some changes. Changes will be based on the discussions in the thread where mafia discussions usually are held.
Go ahead. I won't be able to GM or participate until mid-April anyway, though.
, 
, 
, 
or 
are attached, that paragraph may not be 100% serious. Seriously.
