Mafia Mafia Mafia! Pt. 2! (Game 4: Town wins!)

[Schillok]

But their interrogation seems inferior (to me) manga-wise compared to their ability to make friends and allies. They have won Conan and Ai in a heartbeat. Same with the Professor. They gained the trust of Takagi and Satô almost as quickly and they are willing to share their investigations with them. Even Shiratori and Megure trust them.
I think having the power to befriend someone similar to Sonoko would be closer to their actual role. And then helping that person with all their power (which usually means 6 additional sets of legs, ears and eyes).
You are right the death of their friend would hurt them way too much though. Maybe they should be allowed to search for a new friend during the day then?

Example:
The DB know their identities and decide to try to befriend player A during the first day. That player would then receive the message that "Some children tried to talk with you but you sent them away without looking at them" if it is a BO or FBI (without knowing who tried to befriend him there). The DB would then get the message from the GM during the night they were not able to make friends with that character. Which would kind of also work as their "interrogation" method since it will help them to find FBI/BO.
The second day they try again with player B. If that player is not FBI or BO - or if she is Vermouth/ a BO pawn in a townie disguise - (s)he will get the choice (? - might also be possible to make it mandatory) to accept their friendship. During the night phase the GM will send that player the identities of the DBs and the DB the identity (assumed identity for a disguised character) of their new friend. For example "You befriended the players X (Mitsuhiko), Y (Ayumi) and Z (Genta)" or "Your group befriended the player B (Agasa)").

As long as they are in a friendship they will not be able to look for new friends, so they will have to rely on the power of their ally. If that ally dies/is arrested they can search for a new friend.


I think that would make them closer to their true character (and eliminates the problem of having them trying to catch a murderer on their own by interrogating strangers on their own).
It could also allow some interesting combinations (more or less beneficial for the persons involved) and they might get confused and used by a BO in disguise if they are not careful.

While this is s good (very good!) idea, the problem is that it is too slow. Some games ended as early as the end of Night 3 - in your example above just the moment their new-found friend can use his ability for them for the first time.
Perhaps it's better if they choose exactly like Sonoko (see her role)(that means during preparation). They'd get a friend for (almost) sure - and they could befriend the FBI as well (I don't think, for example, that there would be problems with Jodie).

Yeah, I was wondering if it might be too slow as well. Could be used to balance them in case they are too weak or removed if they were too strong. Having each of the DB suggesting one player as a possible friend (before they know each others identities) choosing a random non-BO (non-DB) among them.
I am worried that also adding the FBI to their friends would make them too strong since they would know for sure then that their previous (failed) attempt to find a friend would mean it is for sure a BO. Slandering would not work. They would even be able to detect Anakota easily who is otherwise invisible to everything except investigations. They could even reveal their identities to make sure the town votes against that BO member.

On the other hand if they were required to have their friend killed first because they have one from beginning on they will not use that ability very often... okay, it could work.

But still, I think it's much easier to simply give them this one ability. After all, why shouldn't the DBs interrogate? Isn't that what they do in every case they appear?

Well... true.

[Tanner-kun]

I honestly don't think the DB are a good idea because with a group up to 4 they practical control the lynch right from the start so unless 5 or more people vote for someone else and none votes with the DB's than they controll the vote. this will take some fun out of the game as if your not DB or BO than vote is almost useless.

[Akonyl]

I'd also consider a 3rd party too complicated (and it doesn't fit DC). And, currently, we can't afford two games of Mafia, as we are (still?) to few. But if we are 20 or so, we might consider two games.

you don't particularly need a lot of people, you just need people who want to play multiple games of mafia at once

[Schillok]

I honestly don't think the DB are a good idea because with a group up to 4 they practical control the lynch right from the start so unless 5 or more people vote for someone else and none votes with the DB's than they controll the vote. this will take some fun out of the game as if your not DB or BO than vote is almost useless.

The first day they will hardly have any lead who to lynch. All they will do is probably protecting themselves.

And with 3 (or 4) equal vote they would basically give away their identity at once. If the BO is really afraid of that power then they will chose them as the targets for their nightly killings.

Yes they will control the vote. That is their main advantage. But they have little information who they should vote for and who they can trust.

[TheBlind]

But only that knowledge would make playing them boring. Great, you can cooperate with 2 other players, but what can you do? Nothing, except influencing the lynch voting. Compared to all the other roles which all do something this roles would not be interesting.

Exactly why they should not be created..see my point now.

Now as to your suggestions, they are unjust to the players assigned the role of DB and the the person the DB befriends. I don't think anyone would find enjoyment in having the task of only trying to befriend someone just to get feed information that they cannot directly apply. The same goes for the person that would have the task of essentially playing telephone for the DBs.

It just creates a nuisance like in the canon. Why would anyone want this type of change where it creates more work and removes fun simultaneously?

About the DBs:

@ The Blind:
I somehow feel as if you had ignored my last post.
(mainly because they don't have anything else overshadowing it). And therefore it's their ability.

I read your post and I'm trying to tell you that you want to forced in the DBs with a gimmick ability that other characters are more deserving of. If you want the "trust" ability in, then find a character that needs tuning and nominate to give it to them. If you want the DBs in, seems like what you really want, then you must find an actual reason to introduce them to the game and sadly, I don't think there is one without hurting the foundation of the game itself.

I'm not an expert on Mafia. I only have one game of experience to my name but it seems to me that the major goal of the mafia is not killing, it is to be able to successfully blend in after killing. While the major goal of the town is to establish leadership and create an atmosphere of trust to counter the mafia. It's the core of the game and what also makes it so entertaining. The side who wins is the side that does their goal more efficiently, which opens the door to lies, backroom deals, secret partnerships, and etc. What you are proposing is to change the game itself by removing or weakening all of this.

By already having a team of three set, the game becomes nothing more than a "team battle". Even if the DBs sole ability is to be able to know the other two, all they would have to do is announce themselves and you now have Team Mafia vs Team Town. A situation where the Mafia CANNOT win and no strategy/deduction is needed, only a simple process of elimination.

It would be no different if at the start of every game the GM announces:
Commi, Holmes, Xcommando are good guys.
In one move the mafia's ability to hide is severely decreased and the fun to be had by the town is decreased as they already know who not to suspect/search/keep an eye on.

I honestly don't think the DB are a good idea because with a group up to 4 they practical control the lynch right from the start so unless 5 or more people vote for someone else and none votes with the DB's than they controll the vote. this will take some fun out of the game as if your not DB or BO than vote is almost useless.

Another possibility. They do not even have to be right or have a solid plan, if all four agree, they most likely take the vote. Nice catch.

[TheBlind]

The first day they will hardly have any lead who to lynch. All they will do is probably protecting themselves.

And with 3 (or 4) equal vote they would basically give away their identity at once. If the BO is really afraid of that power then they will chose them as the targets for their nightly killings.

Yes they will control the vote. That is their main advantage. But they have little information who they should vote for and who they can trust.

Controlling the vote should NEVER be a character's advantage. It should stay as it always has been, you can control the vote by getting people to believe in your words. This means you either must have a solid deduction(with or without evidence) that radiates goodness or must be an evil cunning monster that can manipulate the situation. No one should be handed control just because of a "role".

Also, the DBs have no reason to hide their identity. Why would they?
Their strength comes from knowing three players who are not mafia. They would want that to be known if they want their side, the town, to win. It is not like the B.O. who cannot spam the lynching vote because it would be a dead give away(unless the whole town was set against a certain individual).

Finally, The B.O. would not be afraid of the DBs, the town would. The DBs would take the lynching poll hostage and as long as they do not call the right shots, the B.O. will let them live and just watch as they self-destruct. In addition, the B.O. wouldn't waste a kill on a DB after they have announced who they are as it would be a waste. There is no more damage the DBs can do other than just be a voter and I'm sure the B.O. would rather aim at someone with an actual ability who is also a voter, .

[Callid]

I honestly don't think the DB are a good idea because with a group up to 4 they practical control the lynch right from the start so unless 5 or more people vote for someone else and none votes with the DB's than they controll the vote. this will take some fun out of the game as if your not DB or BO than vote is almost useless.

Note that my original version did have only up to three (and I finally convinced Schillok *phew*). And even with my version, it is not necessary to have 3 DBs. Two would work as well. But even if it were 3: We are 15 players now, and therefore 3 isn't much. The other 8 can still easily outvote a 4-people-BO and a 3-people-DB. Even if both DB and BO are voting for the same person.


@ Schillok:

Okay. I was unsure how arresting works anyway.
So basically the police officers says per PM: I arrest Schillok for murdering TheBlind (Ai Haibara)?
If it is true then I will be arrested but the other players will not know my final identity, only that I was really the one who did it?
And if it is false I get arrested anyway, the officer becomes public and a civilian without powers and it will be told that it was not me, correct?

Same if the officer successfully found out my disguise I guess: I will be arrested, it will be told that I in deed took that identity but my true identity will remain hidden?

The rules say the following at the moment:
- You are arrested, not matter if the claim is true. (I'd prefer to change that)
- You have to specify very concrete. (Holmes helped Akonyl to kill Schillok)
- The only thing published (to both the arrested and the public) is the fact that he was arrested and if a certain police man left the police (I would change it so that it is announced who arrested whom and if it was successful, but only the arrested would know for which crime (even if he was innocent).)
- Your identity does not get known when arrested. No identity (we had this last time with Anakota). The police does only know that Schillok killed TheBlind (the Ai Haibara-thing isn't needed). They don't care who he is.
- If you are arrested for disguising, only the police officer and you will know whom you disguised as, and noone (except you, of course) will know your true identity. Therefore it might happen that 1412 gets arrested. (However, the police officer might tell anything he knows to the townsfolk. But he doesn't have to.)

Okiya will ask: "Is there a Shiratori in the game", correct? But yes, in that case he will find out there is one - even if I am only assuming Shiratoris role.

Yes, he asks this.

Or wait.... is it announced that the murderer was tricked? Or is it merely stated that noone died that night? In case of the later I guess it works better than what I suggested.

It's only announced that noone died. Normalerweise durch "Die Stadt wacht auf - und keiner ist tot."    Only the murderer himself will know that he got tricked - although, with Kir I'd change it in a way that the murderer and the intended victim will know that tricking was the reason.
Even the Trickster will not know if the no-dead was due to his tricking.

Yeah, she should be excluded since otherwise it would be the first thing they search each round. Question is if the same should also be true for Okiya.

Shouldn't searching for a person in disguise always result in a negative anyway? While searching for that disguise result in a positive?

No, it's not needed for Okiya. Okiya does not know who is Mafia and can't use this knowledge to find Kir.
No, it will find both. As the most important thing about a character are the identities, he might even be only interested in "is this ability available". Therefore both Vermouth and her disguise Araide are found. Araide is simply not on the town side...

[Callid]

The first day they will hardly have any lead who to lynch. All they will do is probably protecting themselves.

And with 3 (or 4) equal vote they would basically give away their identity at once. If the BO is really afraid of that power then they will chose them as the targets for their nightly killings.

Yes they will control the vote. That is their main advantage. But they have little information who they should vote for and who they can trust.

As I said, no. With 15 players, they can't control the vote.

Also, the DBs have no reason to hide their identity. Why would they?
Their strength comes from knowing three players who are not mafia. They would want that to be known if they want their side, the town, to win.

Because after one night there would be only two players who know that they are not Mafia. Which would make them similar to a normal Sonoko or the lovers - not that awfully strong.

Exactly why they should not be created..see my point now.

No, exactly why we should give them a not-too-strong ability that fits them. Interrogation.

I'm not an expert on Mafia. I only have one game of experience to my name but it seems to me that the major goal of the mafia is not killing, it is to be able to successfully blend in after killing. While the major goal of the town is to establish leadership and create an atmosphere of trust to counter the mafia. It's the core of the game and what also makes it so entertaining. The side who wins is the side that does their goal more efficiently, which opens the door to lies, backroom deals, secret partnerships, and etc. What you are proposing is to change the game itself by removing or weakening all of this.

By already having a team of three set, the game becomes nothing more than a "team battle". Even if the DBs sole ability is to be able to know the other two, all they would have to do is announce themselves and you now have Team Mafia vs Team Town. A situation where the Mafia CANNOT win and no strategy/deduction is needed, only a simple process of elimination.

What I'm proposing is a normal Mafia role, most times called Masons.

Finally, The B.O. would not be afraid of the DBs, the town would. The DBs would take the lynching poll hostage and as long as they do not call the right shots, the B.O. will let them live and just watch as they self-destruct. In addition, the B.O. wouldn't waste a kill on a DB after they have announced who they are as it would be a waste. There is no more damage the DBs can do other than just be a voter and I'm sure the B.O. would rather aim at someone with an actual ability who is also a voter, Grin.

As I said, they can't take it hostage, and they are much less of a thread if you kill one of them. Because if you continue to kill others, their part of the votes gets larger and larger. If we consider that two of the BO have been killed until they kill all "normal" townies, they'll lose with this strategy (at the end, it's 3 DB against 2 BO). And, as game 1 showed, the strength of an alliance rises exponentially with the number of allies - and the normal townsfolk can not get allied with the DB simply by announcing, because the DB can't trust them. Therefore, if you kill one DB you'll reduce a three-man-alliance to a (much weaker) two-man-alliance.

It just creates a nuisance like in the canon. Why would anyone want this type of change where it creates more work and removes fun simultaneously?

Of course, with your anti-DB-attitude, you won't find anything we suggest pleasant. If you have a better idea of a ability for the DB, come forward!

[Schillok]

The first day they will hardly have any lead who to lynch. All they will do is probably protecting themselves.

And with 3 (or 4) equal vote they would basically give away their identity at once. If the BO is really afraid of that power then they will chose them as the targets for their nightly killings.

Yes they will control the vote. That is their main advantage. But they have little information who they should vote for and who they can trust.

As I said, no. With 15 players, they can't control the vote.

14 players unless Araide or Eisuke have chosen the correct target. But chances are (with 4 BO 3/11= 27.3%) that the assassination got one of the 3 DB anyway.
In the previous games it seems like 3 or 4 votes was usually enough to lynch the target. But true, with 15 players things look very different. Good leading (or deceiving) will be more successful since there will be more players without a lead.
Actually, the DB are likely among those players who have no idea anyway if they only get one weak interrogation. Convincing them of your theory (weather you know they exist or not) will be deciding the poll.
It really seems like their timing in revealing their identities (or keeping them covered), the luck of not getting killed and the additional contacts they make in secret will greatly influence how much (or how little) power they have.

I'm not an expert on Mafia. I only have one game of experience to my name but it seems to me that the major goal of the mafia is not killing, it is to be able to successfully blend in after killing. While the major goal of the town is to establish leadership and create an atmosphere of trust to counter the mafia. It's the core of the game and what also makes it so entertaining. The side who wins is the side that does their goal more efficiently, which opens the door to lies, backroom deals, secret partnerships, and etc. What you are proposing is to change the game itself by removing or weakening all of this.

I don't think the addition of 3 connected players with a rather weak ability will hinder the "blending in" much. On the other hand having 3 strong characters (Shinichi, Heiji + Ai) instead would tear through the covers within one or two rounds once Ai finds the detectives because she can smell who she can trust or one of the detective takes the chance that a "Non-BO" is not a Anakota, Vermouth or Mafia Pawn (their chances to be right should be - considering on average 2 disguisers are in the BO - about 85%. A good bet if you ask me.
The 3 DB would need a much longer time to check the other players considering they get only 1 search per day.

It just creates a nuisance like in the canon. Why would anyone want this type of change where it creates more work and removes fun simultaneously?

Of course, with your anti-DB-attitude, you won't find anything we suggest pleasant. If you have a better idea of a ability for the DB, come forward!

It sounds like fun to me. Beside as said before, if they are not DB, they would be another town role.
If they are not there we have 15 remaining different town characters. Removing 2 of the protector types this makes 13. Substracting 2 more roles for Vermouth and Kid to take we are down to 11. And with "balanced" game of 4 BO this leaves exactly 11 townies. Come on, that would mean that we know before which town roles are in the game (all of them! Who wants to be Okiya? Or Burbon? Their "search abilities" are pretty much useless now.). Just having 3 additional character slots with an unique ability would greatly increase diversity.

[TheBlind]

As I said, no. With 15 players, they can't control the vote.

So you want to create a role that needs a game of ten or more people to avoid abuse, opens the door for abuse during long games, and forces the GM to increase the amount of B.O. members in a game if they want to use them?
I say we go with the serial killer and Yoko idea. .

No, exactly why we should give them a not-too-strong ability that fits them. Interrogation.

No, you do see it, which is why you are now trying to justify including them by giving them an ability way beyond their capabilities. The DBs at best only show an ability to have child-like deductions(and this is all Mitsuhiko), so giving them standard Interrogation would be an insult to Mouri( ).

So the way I see it, you can create the role and then label them the DBs but they are really just three detective roles with an unfair advantage against the Mafia and Town, create the role with a handicap that gives them only one interrogating between the three that would cause people to feel punished by being assign the role, or  you can keep true to the DBs in the canon. Give them an Investigation ability which can be denied by the person they are trying to Investigate. Example:XCommando (Mitsuhiko) Investigates Akonyl. Akonyl gets a message from the GM about this and has the choice to have it fail or succeed.

It fits perfect with the DBs as the culprits usually incriminate themselves by not taking them seriously and children have no power over adults in a situation like this. And if some Mafia member is feeling confident, they can have the Investigation succeed.

What I'm proposing is a normal Mafia role, most times called Masons.

Mansons are characters without special abilities that are used in games much larger than this to accommodate players without breaking the game with too many Mafia,Detectives, Doctors, and etc.. Their only purpose is to be a group that is aware of other mansons which has no effect on a large game and this is not what you are proposing. By Mafia wiki standards(Wikis, the fountain of information, ), a game of 15 is normal sized. So it seems like they would be misused in this game(unless we get a lot more people) and giving them abilities messes with the balance, something Mansons aren't suppose to do.

And since this is a good place: I see you keep dancing with the idea of only having two DBs per game but doesn't it have to be ALL or nothing?
If one is missing they are not the DBs anymore, just two children. That's the problem with the DBs, you can't split them up(which would make things much easier) for individual assignment. One would just be pointless if keep true to the Manson(if giving the ability you suggest, then it's another detective role in the form of a child), two would just be the lovers without any negatives if one dies, and three is causes a balance problem(if kept to the Manson, it also feels like someone is getting a bad role compared to the others).

Of course, with your anti-DB-attitude, you won't find anything we suggest pleasant. If you have a better idea of a ability for the DB, come forward!

, are you getting angry over this?

My anti DB attitude has nothing to do with this thank you very much( ). I would be as vocal if you tried to add Inspector Yamato, Inspector Koumei, and Inspector Uehara with the same rules.(We should try to add those guys..you know from Furinkazan and Red Wall). It's about fairness, balance, and ensuring EVERY person receives a fun role that allows them to participate directly and indirectly.

Best way to handle this just to leave it open for discussion then have a poll on it. First poll would decided if they should be included while the second poll would decided their ability. That simple, no need to blow a fuse(Yes I finally got to use that in conversation*crosses of list*)

[TheBlind]

It sounds like fun to me. Beside as said before, if they are not DB, they would be another town role.
If they are not there we have 15 remaining different town characters. Removing 2 of the protector types this makes 13. Substracting 2 more roles for Vermouth and Kid to take we are down to 11. And with "balanced" game of 4 BO this leaves exactly 11 townies. Come on, that would mean that we know before which town roles are in the game (all of them! Who wants to be Okiya? Or Burbon? Their "search abilities" are pretty much useless now.). Just having 3 additional character slots with an unique ability would greatly increase diversity.

Actually, you can have a balanced game with just three members as last game showed but the real point is that I think people would be in favor of tuning Okiya, Bourbon, Kir, and the other unstables than to add three vanilla roles or to just add three detectives that can work together when we already have more qualified roles for such an event(FBI/Police force).

I think Akonyl's idea, along with Kleene's of the tuning of Bourbon would be interesting. I haven't read the rules on Okiya, so I don't know what's his blueprint but I could see him being a third protector. A protector with the ability to investigate(not interrogate as he is keeping a low profile) and cannot do both simultaneously during one phase.

[Tanner-kun]

why not have the DB votes only count as if the hole group is one person. but we would ave to announce who the DB are.

example:
DB are abs, akonyl, and commie ninja.
They decide on akonyl as their leader, the leader is the only one who can send in the votes and night action.
they vote Callid. instead of 3 votes against him its just 1.

[Kleene Onigiri]

At first, I thought that the DB's would be too strong too and would make the game unbalanced.

But they are actually like Sonokos role.
Sonoko befriends someone in the prep-phase. Thus she can team up with a good role (detective, FBI...) and can vote together against someone. So they automatically have 2 lynching votes against a suspect they found through a ability. Thus you could say, that Sonoko's friend is sharing the ability together with her, and Sonoko is supporting him/her with her vote.
But she could team up with a "bad" role, like Agasa or Araide. Because here they can't find out who could be BO or not, so they can't vote for someone because they found him out through an ability. Here Sonoko's ability is to protect her friend if he's about to be lynched or suspected.

The DB's are similar. They are 2-3 Friends that share 1 ability. The difference is, that their ability is fixed, so they can't get a better or worse ability. If they find a suspect, they can vote together against him, so they have 2-3 votes automatically. Similar to Sonoko.

So if you don't like the DB's, then you shouldn't like Sonoko either, since their "abilities" are similar.

I also think there is nothing wrong with just having 2 out of 3 DB's. Since the DB's are actually 5 people (Conan, Haibara, Genta, Mitsuhiko, Ayumi). And just because the role isn't there, doesn't mean that they "aren't in the town".
Furthermore, if you can't seperate the DB's, then you shouldn't separate Heiji and Kazuha or Sato and Takagi or Korn and Chianti etc. ;p Some love-relationships would be strange too, since it's possible that they never met in the manga/anime. (akaixkid?)

The more roles available, the better. The GM (which would be Sakina for the next round) doesn't have to use all roles. He/she has to make it balanced anyway. But the more there are, the more speculations the player can make (also important for Bourons and Okiyas ability).

I would be as vocal if you tried to add Inspector Yamato, Inspector Koumei, and Inspector Uehara with the same rules.

They could be added to the Police They just have to be named there, otherwise it would be hard for Bourbon/Okiyas ability to know who exactly could be in the game or not. There stands "Satou/Takagi/Shiratori/etc., police officer", but the etc. is too vague with that ability.

@callid:
Will you add Vodka and Kir to your roles summary? And the other changes/suggestions?

[Schillok]

As I said, no. With 15 players, they can't control the vote.

So you want to create a role that needs a game of ten or more people to avoid abuse, opens the door for abuse during long games, and forces the GM to increase the amount of B.O. members in a game if they want to use them?
I say we go with the serial killer and Yoko idea. .

Wasn't this the idea anyway? The Detective Boys roles will only be given out when there are enough players (10+).
And how should they be abused in long games? With 11 townies the chance of one of them being killed in the first night is 27.3%, the chance during the second night (if no townie was lynched) is 30.0% and during the third night (again if no townie was lynched is 33.3%. That is only a 33.9% chance that they are all 3 alive during the third day. Meaning in 2 out of 3 games they will already be short one member. And that is the most optimistic outcome, considering the lynchings are very likely to kill townies in the beginning. Their true chance to be an intact group at that point is therefore much smaller.

If you want Yokô or the serial killer, go ahead and suggest how their roles should look like (but keep them interesting and fair). I would love to have a Yokô in there.  

No, exactly why we should give them a not-too-strong ability that fits them. Interrogation.

No, you do see it, which is why you are now trying to justify including them by giving them an ability way beyond their capabilities. The DBs at best only show an ability to have child-like deductions(and this is all Mitsuhiko), so giving them standard Interrogation would be an insult to Mouri( ).

So the way I see it, you can create the role and then label them the DBs but they are really just three detective roles with an unfair advantage against the Mafia and Town, create the role with a handicap that gives them only one interrogating between the three that would cause people to feel punished by being assign the role, or  you can keep true to the DBs in the canon. Give them an Investigation ability which can be denied by the person they are trying to Investigate. Example:XCommando (Mitsuhiko) Investigates Akonyl. Akonyl gets a message from the GM about this and has the choice to have it fail or succeed.

Why should they need the permission for investigations? Investigation is the police/FBI ability that tells if they did a certain action during that night. It is done from a distance. There is no direct interaction between the observer and the observed. If the observed fails to notice the police officer... why should they not be able to fail noticing 3 children (or not take them for a thread)?
Callid is right, Interrogation fits the DB better. That's what they do, talking with the people to gain information (Usually in AO, but that does show it is characteristic for them).
In case you mean asking for the permission for interrogation... what would it do?!? If they interrogate during the day (like their role is intended) then everyone who will show up as "non-BO" will allow them. The outcome for someone who will show up as BO will be same no matter what they choose. Slandering is not possible during the day, so it is useless.
If they interrogate at night then their ability would be completely useless as long as Gin is alive (or as long as they don't know there is a Gin in the game) since they could not trust a single "non-BO" result they get. Again, the only one who would refuse being interrogated would be BO.

It fits perfect with the DBs as the culprits usually incriminate themselves by not taking them seriously and children have no power over adults in a situation like this. And if some Mafia member is feeling confident, they can have the Investigation succeed.

If you really want them to have investigation powers they would have to be much stronger than normal. Like having 3 investigations per active DB. 3 persons can do more than one, especially if it is only observing something. Investigations are weak anyway. If police are pawns in the game, what would the DB be?
Or an investigation that shows what a certain player did without requiring a target. (You investigated player A during the night. You noticed him/her interrogating an unknown person). On a second thought this would make them ridiculous overpowered in finding town roles like detectives, protectors or healers...

 
Mansons are characters without special abilities that are used in games much larger than this to accommodate players without breaking the game with too many Mafia,Detectives, Doctors, and etc.. Their only purpose is to be a group that is aware of other mansons which has no effect on a large game and this is not what you are proposing. By Mafia wiki standards(Wikis, the fountain of information, ), a game of 15 is normal sized. So it seems like they would be misused in this game(unless we get a lot more people) and giving them abilities messes with the balance, something Mansons aren't suppose to do.

Detective Boys are a role for bigger games anyway. There is no reason to use them in a game with 10 or less players. And I don't see where you got your information that masons are only used in large games.
Beside, the group size of Masons can be chosen at will and will likely be bigger than 3. The DB will always be 3.

And since this is a good place: I see you keep dancing with the idea of only having two DBs per game but doesn't it have to be ALL or nothing?
If one is missing they are not the DBs anymore, just two children. That's the problem with the DBs, you can't split them up(which would make things much easier) for individual assignment. One would just be pointless if keep true to the Manson(if giving the ability you suggest, then it's another detective role in the form of a child), two would just be the lovers without any negatives if one dies, and three is causes a balance problem(if kept to the Manson, it also feels like someone is getting a bad role compared to the others).

All or nothing, yeah. Otherwise it would be a weaker Sonoko (DB don't learn the identity of the attacker) befriending a weaker Hakuba (DB gain no immunity from being abroad).

Of course, with your anti-DB-attitude, you won't find anything we suggest pleasant. If you have a better idea of a ability for the DB, come forward!

, are you getting angry over this?

My anti DB attitude has nothing to do with this thank you very much( ). I would be as vocal if you tried to add Inspector Yamato, Inspector Koumei, and Inspector Uehara with the same rules.(We should try to add those guys..you know from Furinkazan and Red Wall). It's about fairness, balance, and ensuring EVERY person receives a fun role that allows them to participate directly and indirectly.

You are worried about the DB unbalancing the chances for the BO and you suggest the introduction of 3 connected stronger characters?!? Seriously, the most simple explanation is that you really hate the DB and don't want to have them in the game.
But if you have a good idea for these three Inspectors, tell them. More town roles, more diversity. At the moment I don't see why they should not be any different from the already existing inspector roles (Takagi, Satô, Shiratori).

Best way to handle this just to leave it open for discussion then have a poll on it. First poll would decided if they should be included while the second poll would decided their ability. That simple, no need to blow a fuse(Yes I finally got to use that in conversation*crosses of list*)

Shouldn't the final decision if they are included or not be with the GM of that game? If the GM does not like them he/she can chose not to include them - or any other role for that matter.
So let us just find the ability for them. Something that suits them, something that is fair and something that is interesting enough for the 3 players playing them.

why not have the DB votes only count as if the hole group is one person. but we would ave to announce who the DB are.

example:
DB are abs, akonyl, and commie ninja.
They decide on akonyl as their leader, the leader is the only one who can send in the votes and night action.
they vote Callid. instead of 3 votes against him its just 1.

The problem is that they are 3 players. And it would shift the lynch voting dangerously strong to the BO side.
The way you suggested it Abs and commie ninja would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Worse, it is as if the town had just lost 2 players.
There is no reason for the BO to kill any off them. They have only 1 vote anyway. So as long as they eliminate all the other players they will win even if the 3DB are in the end against 1 single BO member. Since their names are public (and they didn't even have a chance to refuse being public) the BO will not even kill them by accident.

No, each player should retain their own vote. 3 votes for the DB, this is their strongest only strong point.

[Schillok]

At first, I thought that the DB's would be too strong too and would make the game unbalanced.

But they are actually like Sonokos role.
Sonoko befriends someone in the prep-phase. Thus she can team up with a good role (detective, FBI...) and can vote together against someone. So they automatically have 2 lynching votes against a suspect they found through a ability. Thus you could say, that Sonoko's friend is sharing the ability together with her, and Sonoko is supporting him/her with her vote.
But she could team up with a "bad" role, like Agasa or Araide. Because here they can't find out who could be BO or not, so they can't vote for someone because they found him out through an ability. Here Sonoko's ability is to protect her friend if he's about to be lynched or suspected.

I would say Sonoko befriending Agasa is very strong. Agasa gains the perfect, trustworthy target for his watch and bow-tie which give Sonoko the power of a detective and protection from the BO except for snipers. So basically it is the same as if she befriended a detective, with the only difference that they can't investigate/interrogate during the first night but with the additional bonus of protection starting the second night.
And that Sonoko will learn the name of Agasas killer. Again, snipers are their weak point. 
But back to the DB...

The DB's are similar. They are 2-3 Friends that share 1 ability. The difference is, that their ability is fixed, so they can't get a better or worse ability. If they find a suspect, they can vote together against him, so they have 2-3 votes automatically. Similar to Sonoko.

So if you don't like the DB's, then you shouldn't like Sonoko either, since their "abilities" are similar.

To balance things the DB means that also a third player has no "stronger" role. This reduces the number of investigations/interrogation the town gets each night, protecting the BO from getting their covers exposed too early. Furthermore Sonoko has the advantage to see the face of her friends attacker which make her different from a DB.
Sonoko + friend can choose to decide who should be exposed (more likely target for BO) so they can either see a face or protect the friend if he/she has a strong role. The DB are all equal.

I also think there is nothing wrong with just having 2 out of 3 DB's. Since the DB's are actually 5 people (Conan, Haibara, Genta, Mitsuhiko, Ayumi). And just because the role isn't there, doesn't mean that they "aren't in the town".
Furthermore, if you can't seperate the DB's, then you shouldn't separate Heiji and Kazuha or Sato and Takagi or Korn and Chianti etc. ;p Some love-relationships would be strange too, since it's possible that they never met in the manga/anime. (akaixkid?)

There were cases with only Heiji and no Kazuha. Cases with only Takagi and no Satô. Korn and Chianti could be assigned to assist a group in different parts of japan.
But the detective boys are in all their cases together (minus Haibara, she is missing in the beginning and some later AO). Given that Conan can also be on cases with other characters (Mori, Heiji) it means that the "core"of the detecive boys consists of Ayumi, Genta and Mitsuhiko. They are together in all their cases. They should be together here as well.

Otherwise as already said: They would just be a weaker Sonoko with a weaker Hakuba.

The more roles available, the better. The GM (which would be Sakina for the next round) doesn't have to use all roles. He/she has to make it balanced anyway. But the more there are, the more speculations the player can make (also important for Bourons and Okiyas ability).

Exactly my thought.

I would be as vocal if you tried to add Inspector Yamato, Inspector Koumei, and Inspector Uehara with the same rules.

They could be added to the Police They just have to be named there, otherwise it would be hard for Bourbon/Okiyas ability to know who exactly could be in the game or not. There stands "Satou/Takagi/Shiratori/etc., police officer", but the etc. is too vague with that ability.

I suggest they still could be slightly different from the other police officers if we tried to. Let's see...

Inspector Yamato/ Inspector Koumei/ Inspector Uehara, Nagano Police Officers

• May investigate if a certain target committed a certain action (mangaluva killed Callid; Callid tricked Akonyl; Akonyl protected Conia) at night 3(? What is the current number for police?) times and will get either a right or false. This action cannot be hindered in any way (except by the Trickster), since it doesn't matter if a Vermouth disguised as Ran killed Shinichi or if the true Ran did so - the person who seems to be Ran will be arrested anyway. The slanderer can also slander as much as he want, the police will not get irritated by that.
• Can not issue an arrest on their own since they have no subordinates in Beika.
• If investigating one of the other Nagano Police Inspectors they will learn their identity after the night. The person investigated will not notice this. Since Vermouth and Kid can also use the investigation ability if they have the disguise as a Nagano Police Inspector they will likewise be informed if they discover one of the Nagano Police Inspectors.
• The "discovery" ability also works on disguised characters. Inspector Yamato will be fooled by Kid, Vermouth or one of the Mafia Pawns disguised as one of his partners (or as himself). He can investigate if they are disguising in a later round. If he investigates Kids disguise, Kid will be arrested automatically since the Inspectors are part of the police (see: Kids role description).

Mhh... yeah, I think that is it. They are slower than the DB finding each other but have more investigations together. In a game there should be at least 2 of them.

Note that the investigation ability is only able to find their partners if they are one specified doing the action, not the target.
"mangaluva killed Callid" will only tell them if mangaluva is one of their partners, but not if Callid. If a mafia pawn decides for the role of Inspector Yamato the real Inspector Yamato will learn of his doubleganger upon investigation.

@callid:
Will you add Vodka and Kir to your roles summary? And the other changes/suggestions?

Yeah, I think an update of the role summaries would be nice.
BTW; who is the GM for the next round?