ESPIONAGE: Round Three (Spies & Informants Win)

[Jd-]

Informants' Diary

The following is a complete diary of all actions by the Informant team of Jd- & Kaito Lady throughout this round. Because there was so much interest in the actions of the special roles in past rounds, I thought I would keep track of it to share with everyone later. So, here we go:

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Day One
Order: Mention you're super excited to work with a/your team mate!

So, I've mentioned that I'm "super excited" to work with KL here. Unfortunately, Fujiwara/Raifuujin have mentioned Kamite/breva as a nominated team. I don't have much choice other than to turn it around on them, but I'll try to counteract it by later mentioning that Kamite/breva are suspiciously inactive. Now, Fujiwara/Raifuujin and Togop/Conan-chandesune are the targets of the vote instead of normal civilians. With luck, no one will take too much initiative to ensure this tie actually happens, but it's a long shot.

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Day Two
Order: Blame an inactive team for not killing this round! (even if that means blaming your spies!!)

Togop/Conan-chandesune or Fujiwara/Raifuujin proooobably should've died today... It's going to be hard for us to maintain this cover for long, especially after I covered for Kamite/breva already. I was hoping that one of those pairs would die and the civilians would devolve into confusion afterward. Can't help thinking that not killing one of those two puts our team at a big disadvantage for this phase in particular, because I can't really think of a way to cover this. We're trying, but it's definitely a hard sale. This strategy would've worked fine a round ago when non-voters got a vote from the list, but not anymore. In the meantime, I'm conferring with K-L about what to do next. The problem is and always will be that the longer the game goes on, the more likely it is the Detective team will identify Kamite/breva and the jig will be up. Hopefully their first kill is for the Detectives, and then we'll be good to go.

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Day Three
Order: Use the math in the topic to find suspicions in Team 5 and 10!

Whew, that was close! The tie vote from Day 2 also included two votes for Kamite/breva. Shame that we got another tie vote, though. More importantly, Togop is still mentioning that I stopped that nomination on the first day. Smart lad--mayhaps he'll be the next killed. Thankfully, he hasn't quite settled on the real reason I switched the targets that day (not yet, at least). Also looks like no one has seen the order from Day 1; that should be safe. Fujiwara/Raifuujin were playing a very good round, so their deaths mean the civilians have it a lot harder beginning now. Fortunately, Fujiwara's last post was suspicious of Stopwatch's proposition and positive toward my suggestion of dumytru as a civilian, so there's that.

#1 goal for today: Ensure someone gets arrested on Day 3 that isn't Kamite/breva. We need to specifically try to get Kain/Jellitto and Kleene/Miaka to vote for someone other than them to avoid a lucky arrest for the civilians, but it looks like Kleene and Miaka will be inactive for most of the day, so we'll just have to try to create a makeshift alliance to get more votes than what Kamite/Breva will get. Our tact now has been to shift blame onto Kain/Jellitto with the hope they'll be arrested (and possibly switch their vote to our team to keep attention away from Kamite/breva). As I've said to KL: "We could get really lucky and find out they're the Detectives, buuut at the very least we'll get Kamite/breva out of this situation again." Some obstacles have come up, and it's not been easy, but let's see how it goes.

(Note: We didn't quite go along with the order for this phase only because Team 10 of Cider/dumytru are really obviously public civilians and can easily defend themselves. Team 5 is definitely an easier target since they don't have as much evidence in their favor, but since Kain/Jellitto voted for Kamite/breva, it seems safer to try to get rid of them first.)

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Day Four
Order: Sorry for going against you, Informants. Didn't know how many people would go with heliotrope and decided not to risk it.

As luck would have it, Kain and Jellitto really were the Detectives! The best news is that we've been planting the seeds to claim this suspicion was from our list for almost three days now and can use it to hopefully bolster the perception that we're just unfortunate civilians.

I'm glad, for our sake, that Kamite/breva have killed Stopwatch, as she was never going to trust me in an end-game situation in this round and it's important to get those kinds of players out of the way while we still can. My preferable target for the next day is obviously Kleene, who is the last one left that's really playing the part of the contrarian. The danger in this is she's been voting for Kamite/breva for most of the game, so eliminating her seems dangerous. However, no one has been looking into why Stopwatch was killed, so it seems quite possible that people would overlook that too. I'll see if I can signal for Kleene's removal to the Spies today...

I've just posted a lengthy disquisition on the state of the game. I gently included Kleene in the suspects list here, for now, because I want to draw attention away from finding Kamite/breva and more toward exploring her as one of the suspects today. Before, I thought it'd be really good to kill Kleene if she had continued on the same track as the day before, but now I'm not really sure about that. No one will trust her on the final day, not completely at least. That will be very, very good for us. I'm confident now that I can "prove" KL & I are civilians and prevent her from gaining anyone's trust for the day.

Nonetheless, we now have to hold out until the phase change. shinichi'sapprentice has posted his very accurate deduction about what went down on the first day and our identities.

On a sidenote, Jellitto mentioned that he (EDIT: she!) didn't believe me (and consequently KL) to be the Spy in the topic. I'm guessing that they've investigated KL and I and found us to be innocent (Day 2?). However, I'm not going to point out this clue to the civilians because I don't want them to further suspect us of being the Informants. If someone else points it out, that's fine, but it won't come from me unless we're up for a vote. In the end, we may need to voluntarily draw attention to ourselves to ensure we're the ones arrested in place of Kamite/breva. That way, we'd still win since they'd escape.

OK, the phase is almost over and it's going really well... seemingly. There are plenty of smart players left, and I think the only reason they haven't all settled on the truth is the amount of uncertainty we've spread lately. So long as Kamite and Breva show up and defend themselves and make themselves known, they should be fine in the end. Part of the reason people feel so comfortable nominating them is they've been apparently MIA, socially, which gives them no pause when it comes to going after them. If we make it through this, we really, really need them to vote with us next time. Assuming they kill someone successfully (shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth, maybe, given that they've gotten closest to the truth thus far) and RoboG55/Meme are arrested, we only have to vote together and convince one other team to go along with us. That will force a tie and we win.

Typing this update at 1:50 PM. Miyano's post has, barring complete inaction on the behalf of the civilian teams, completely sealed a civilian victory. While I have no doubt she didn't intend to do so, she inadvertently revealed the entire core of her list. It's obvious who is and isn't on that list and anyone paying any attention will now know it. . . . Annnnd Miyano just posted to specifically mention that it all came directly as a result of her list; no ambiguity left. Only hope now is a very quick phase change and shinichi'sapprentice/googleearth dying while everyone disregards what she said. I'm very pessimistic that there's any chance of pulling this off now, though. . . . Annnnd Miyano just specifically posted in response to me mentioning that it was in violation of the rules what she's posted that "shinichi'sapprentice will know" what kind of evidence she's working with. This is obviously a cue for him to use that list and his to win, and I'll be very surprised if he's unable to. . . . Annnd another. . . . Annnnnd yet another, with a meta post that makes it really obvious what happened with the Fujiwara PM (Fujiwara PM'd her, deducing she was a civilian and should delete that, and now she's posting about it for everyone; that wasn't Miyano's intent, but it completely inadvertently proves she's a civilian and everyone paying any attention will know it). No reason to even go over it anymore other than to say our list of people to frame for Day 5 just got reduced by one. Totally awesome.

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Day Five
Order: We are not killing today so more names don't get revealed on lists, might be the wrong decision but oh well. Let's just hope it all works out. Let's vote together and win this thing!

We've made it to this point, despite that hiccup. However, I'm afraid that it won't mean much. Spies didn't kill for the day and I understand their logic, though I think it would've been safe to kill shinichi'sapprentice/googleearth. Even if the Spies had come up on that list, I would've just pointed out that it's unreliable given that Robo/Meme also showed up on two different lists. As such, I think it probably would've been safe to kill them to make this a lot easier for me to protect them. Another problem with not killing here, though, is that it clouds the narrative I constructed regarding Day 1's lack of a kill. Normally, I'd retrofit that to frame someone else, but thanks to Miyano's posts, there's really no one left to do that for. With shinichi'sapprentice/googleearth dead, I'm certain I could have managed this vote. Because, if we had killed someone, we'd only need to convince one civilian to vote with us to end the game. Instead, we now have to convince two. shinichi'sapprentice is the only one who has been constantly suspecting Kamite/breva, so I can only conclude that Kamite/breva have decided to leave it entirely to me to save them from the next arrest.

This is going to be a real test if we can really make it through this thing. I was certain we could do it a few hours ago, but after Miyano's posts, I'm really not confident at all. It's going to take something more than just my intervention; we're really going to need some confusion in the civilian population, which almost definitely isn't coming easily after Miyano's reveal of her list and her confirmation as a civilian as a result of all her posts about it. KL is also now away from her internet connection, so I'll have to do this day solo. I can't imagine shinichi'sapprentice is going to let that happen at this point, though, especially now that he has two lists to work with and a barrage of new outside-the-game information to work with on top of all that.

Our only hope is for them to focus on dumytru and Cider as the Spies. If I let them believe I'm an Informant by strongly, strongly advising against voting dumytru and annoying any players that post early on, they may vote him believing I've been protecting him since the beginning. I knew from the start it would be beneficial to "adopt" a very obvious civilian team for this purpose, but I never expected to be forced due to outside forces to use it. Keeping the attention on me and bringing the attention to protecting dumytru is the only hope. My next step will be to continue to debate and make myself untrustworthy for the majority of the civilian teams and have them mistrust dumytru if it's still possible. With me being the obvious Informant, it won't matter if dumytru votes for any other team with me and Kamite/breva because there's no way any other team will join us. As a result, convincing them that dumytru is the Spy team is the only option we have. (When you read this, sorry, dumytru! Our hand was forced. You've played a great round and were a true civilian player.)

Robo just posted, after being arrested: "Just saying, detective wasn't on my list. So the spy must have been. If I was alive this round, I would pick team 7." For future reference: The fact that you're dead is the reason you no longer can pick a team. We're going to have to overhaul a lot of things to prevent this stuff in the future. It's almost impossible for the Spies to ever win if civilians are revealing their lists even in death. Would any other dead civilian teams like to speak up and re-join the game? We evidently have plenty of room for ghosts in this round.

It's 2:15 AM now and my work is done. However it plays out from here will be how it plays out. I've ensured that they know who the Informants are. Either they will believe that it's Cider & dumytru by the time of phase change or they won't. Nonetheless, win or lose, it won't change the fact that the game didn't play out the way it would have on its own volition.

[Kleene Onigiri]

All I can see is that the round was purposefully closed earlier so people can't discuss and so that the spies do get a win at the end.
Thank you for wasting my time with actually trying to put effort into this game. Never ever have I seen anyone close of a phase change earlier than announced. If you wanted to stop the game, then you should have stopped the game and not just decide to let the spy to win.

I'll never join this game again since I'm disappointed in it.

[shinichi'sapprentice]

wait. i don't have time to read long posts too!! i just know that we lost. so who were the spies?

and . .

Welcome to the latest round of espionage. Round 4.

see you guys there.

[Memesu]

I did post that the detective wasn´t in our list before the end of fourth day. I´m really sorry

[Iwamoto Yuri]

wait. i don't have time to read long posts too!! i just know that we lost. so who were the spies?

and . .

Welcome to the latest round of espionage. Round 4.

see you guys there.

I'm not allowing you to do that <_<

[Jd-]

All I can see is that the round was purposefully closed earlier so people can't discuss and so that the spies do get a win at the end.
Thank you for wasting my time with actually trying to put effort into this game. Never ever have I seen anyone close of a phase change earlier than announced. If you wanted to stop the game, then you should have stopped the game and not just decide to let the spy to win.

I'll never join this game again since I'm disappointed in it.

Take a breath, take some time, read the post. No reason at all to post until you have. Would you have been able to reverse the voting decision in three extra hours? If so, at what cost did it come? Keep these things in mind and read the post when you get time.

Again, read the post. I can say already that Jd- (me, someone on the team that won) proposed for the game to be ended way, way, way before this point and to let the civilians win. Yuri can back me up on this--I made no secret about it whatsoever and said that was the preferable option. All of this, again, is even explained in the post. My concern was not with gaining a win but preserving everyone's time and avoiding a situation where people would be upset at having wasted an entire day debating that wouldn't have been fair to either side. Ultimately, Yuri made her decision to continue the game, and I support her decision to do so. She did what she thought was best and at the very least everyone was given 21 hours to debate the phase unhindered.

The post. Literally the second line politely asks to take the time to read it all in full before adding more confusion to an already confusing situation. I don't think, with all that has happened and the tremendous disadvantage we were put under, that this is really all that much to ask.

Spoiler:

The post.

Note: I will not respond to any other posts along these lines until you have read the earlier post.

[Jd-]

[Memesu]

Still not sure what did shinichi´apprentice want to hear from us.

[Kleene Onigiri]

All I can see is that the round was purposefully closed earlier so people can't discuss and so that the spies do get a win at the end.
Thank you for wasting my time with actually trying to put effort into this game. Never ever have I seen anyone close of a phase change earlier than announced. If you wanted to stop the game, then you should have stopped the game and not just decide to let the spy to win.

I'll never join this game again since I'm disappointed in it.

Take a breath, take some time, read the post. No reason at all to post until you have. Would you have been able to reverse the voting decision in three extra hours? If so, at what cost did it come? Keep these things in mind and read the post when you get time.

Again, read the post. I can say already that Jd- (me, someone on the team that won) proposed for the game to be ended way, way, way before this point and to let the civilians win. Yuri can back me up on this--I made no secret about it whatsoever and said that was the preferable option. All of this, again, is even explained in the post. My concern was not with gaining a win but preserving everyone's time and avoiding a situation where people would be upset at having wasted an entire day debating that wouldn't have been fair to either side. Ultimately, Yuri made her decision to continue the game, and I support her decision to do so. She did what she thought was best and at the very least everyone was given 21 hours to debate the phase unhindered.

The post. Literally the second line politely asks to take the time to read it all in full before adding more confusion to an already confusing situation. I don't think, with all that has happened and the tremendous disadvantage we were put under, that this is really all that much to ask.

Spoiler:

The post.

Note: I will not respond to any other posts along these lines until you have read the earlier post.

I've read the earlier post and Yuri told me in PM that you wanted the game to end and she wanted to continue.
BUT if you decide to continue the game as GM, THEN CONTINUE IT TO THE END!

The big post I wrote to you took me 2-3 hours to write. While I had a headache and felt sick.
So I took a nap, woke up and the game ended.... ALTHOUGH I was supposed to have 3 more hours!
I know it's shit as a spy/informant to have outside information flow into the game. Guess what happened more than often enough for me in Mafia? I was there when the term "pofad" happened. Or even last Mafia round, the whole BO was able to get figured out because we weren't invisible on the new forum yet (which you fixed then <3 But we were never sure if someone actually saw it)

But can you imagine how shitty it is for a player, that was following the rules from the start, who was onto Jd- from the start and got in discussions with the informant, who was onto Breva and Kamite since some time ago, to have the chance to show it go to waste and all the efforts you spend before it too? And I didn't see most of the "leaded info" because I read it after most were already deleted already. We just had team 3 on our list that jecka/miyano said were town. And you were able to figure that info out by reading Jellittos clues.
It seems you just see unjust has happened to the spy/informant. It seems it doesn't matter when a player actually puts effort into the game because you had "21 hours" to play. But heeey, it doesn't matter what time-zone you're from and that you actually have a life. As long as the ones in the american timezone had enough time to debate, it's fiiiine~

And I did read your post. That's why I have one last suggestion to make:

Dead players are dead. Arrested players are considered dead, as is stated in the rules. If you are killed or if you are voted for an arrest, you are no longer allowed to post ANYTHING in the topic about the game. You're dead. Consider yourself dead. Dead people do not make new posts. Before, and in Mafia rounds, we've been lenient about this and let people post "Aw shucks" sort of messages. From now on, we have to cut down on this. The second those results are announced, you shouldn't be posting anything. 99% of players are going to be respectful of the flow of the game, but sometimes people are going to inadvertently give away clues whether they ever intended to or not. The safe way to deal with it is just a zero posts policy.

Say that those voted people are lynched, so they are actually dead too. That way people won't be confused whether they may speak or not when they get voted. If someone is dead, they can't talk.
New players also won't get confused as easily anymore.

And I hope you do what I asked you in my PM.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Oh yea. And in 3 hours you can do a lot. Especially because most are online then.
But look, I'm wasting my breath again. Since it seems it doesn't matter what I think. Bye

[shinichi'sapprentice]

ahHHHHH!!!!!! 8 hours! 8 hours Jd-!! wait for my post. in 8 hours!!

this is our team's list!!

1. Team 7: Kamite and breva
2. Team 9: KainTheVampire and Jellito
3. Team 4: Jd- and Kaito Lady
4. Team 10: Cider and dumytru
5. Team 6: Conan-chandesune and Togop

if i can request everyone to post their team's list as well, please?

as it will affect future rules too. i just want to base my say on the breaking of the rules with that, too.

i had the same experience in round 2, about the revealing of the lists. i know Stopwatch knows what i'm talking about.

and lastly, Kleene! don't give up on us yet! i'll have something to say, too. so can you wait for that as well? and, can I have a glimpse of your list while we're at it.

if after what I have to say, you still don't wanna play espionage anymore, then I'm out too. it's either that or make me gamemaster of round 4.

Later!

[shinichi'sapprentice]

i at least want to see miyano, meme, Fuji, Kleene, and togop's list.

[Togop]

Congratulations on winning! That first spy win so far.

I found that an interesting round. While as far as my actions go, MiyanoShiho's rule violations and Robo's post didn't make much difference (the only team I remember that Miyano exonerated was Robo's; I didn't retract my vote for them based on that; and I made sure to not reference that list any further) I see why you'd be upset about that.
But I don't agree with the way the phase ended. Ending it abruptly three hours early without any advance warning doesn't help in any way resolve the problems with revealing information that shouldn't be revealed. It should have been either a spy victory (as Jd-'s initial request was) or the day should have ended normally. The way it happened, I log in to once again consider everything and decide between dumytru/Cider and Kamite/breva (which would have been my suspects without any illigal interference anyway) only to see that the round ends in 15 minutes! Having the full three hours wouldn't have changed the result of the round, and maybe wouldn't have changed my vote either, but that doesn't change my disappointment.

[Memesu]

1. Team 7: Kamite and breva
2. Team 3: shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth
3. Team 2: Raifuujin and Fujiwara
4. Team 1: Hime-chan and Stopwatch
5. Team 6: Conan-chandesune and Togop

Here.

[Jd-]

I've read the earlier post and Yuri told me in PM that you wanted the game to end and she wanted to continue.
BUT if you decide to continue the game as GM, THEN CONTINUE IT TO THE END!

So, if you had won, would it have really felt like a well-earned victory? If so, you can have it. The civilians can be recorded as having won this round; I'd have no problem at all with that. However, if you truly believe that would have been a well-deserved win and you really did read the earlier post, then we are so far apart on this issue that I have very little else to say.

But can you imagine how shitty it is for a player, that was following the rules from the start, who was onto Jd- from the start and got in discussions with the informant, who was onto Breva and Kamite since some time ago, to have the chance to show it go to waste and all the efforts you spend before it too?

Did you really read that post, Kleene? Be honest. Did you read it all, or did you just skim it? Because I spent a LOT of time, in three different sections exploring exactly why I felt especially sorry for shinichi'sapprentice. If you read it, you sure didn't take much of it to heart, because that was kind of a big theme that was very abundantly covered. I mean, I showered him in all the praise he deserved and basically labeled him the MVP because his performance was amazing. Your post makes it seem like I never even considered that, and that really gives the impression you either glossed over everything I said or didn't read it as closely as you claimed.