Chess Game 13: sstimson vs. c-square

[Callid]

You'd get the bishop back after g5: Th8: Sh8: Dh5+. (Dh5+) Sf7 is followed by Se5, and black loses a queen.

[Holmes]

In my case you could then play Qd1 - h5+, regaining the Knight and also having an offensive position. Maybe I´m saying too much D:

[c-square]

You'd get the bishop back after g5: Th8: Sh8: Dh5+. (Dh5+) Sf7 is followed by Se5, and black loses a queen.

Let me follow along here...

Spoiler: White: Bc1-g5

Spoiler: Black: h6xg5

Spoiler: White: Rh1xh8

Spoiler: Black: Ng6xh8

White: Qd1-h5+??  Can't do it.  There's a knight in the way.  Even if I could:

Spoiler: White: Qd1%h5+

% is the symbol for teleportation  ;)

Spoiler: Black: Nh8-f7

Spoiler: White: Nf3-e5

I still don't see how black loses a queen out of this.  Black can just go Qd8xf6 and get out of it.  Am I missing something here?

[c-square]

In my case you could then play Qd1 - h5+, regaining the Knight and also having an offensive position. Maybe I´m saying too much D:

You mean this?

Spoiler: White: Nf3-g5

Spoiler: Black: h6xg5

Spoiler: White: Rh1xh8

Spoiler: Black: Ng6xh8

Spoiler: White: Qd1-h5+

Black's best response would be:

Spoiler: Black: Nh8-f7

to save the knight.  I'd still be down a knight at the end of the exchange.

[sstimson]

     White  /  Black
                   
1.  d2 - d4 /  e7 - e6
2.  e2 - e4 / Ng8 - e7
3. Nb1 - c3 /  h7 - h6
4. Ng1 - f3 /  g7 - g5
5.  h2 - h4 /  f7 - f6
6.  h4 x g5 /  d7 - d5
7.  g5 x f6 / Ne7 - g6
8.  e4 - e5 / Qd8 - d7
9. Bf1 - d3 /

Time to threaten a knight that has nowhere to go.

Possible answers to that
1) NxP. There is a chess rule/suggestion that says if you got a piece who is going to die, get all you can for it. This move shorten your pawn chain and makes your center weaker
2) N-K2 here is Knight is sacrificed for your nuisance pawn, getting rid of it
3) N-B5 here I help you develop your bishop (that one is out)
4) N-R5 here while I do get your knight on a edge square, I also open up your queen  (that one is out)

so

Time to threaten a knight that has nowhere to go.

the knight does have two good squares he could go to

Other options
5) K-B2 Blocks the pawn and defends the Knight
6) Q-B2 the same as above but stronger
7) Q-R2 here the queen pins herself (that one is out)

[Callid]

@ c-square: Ah, you're right. I totally overlooked Qf6:   I thought she could only move to e7 I should stop analyzing after 0:00 

[Holmes]

@c-square: didn´t think of that Knight defense. Nice!

[sstimson]

    White  /  Black
                   
1.  d2 - d4 /  e7 - e6
2.  e2 - e4 / Ng8 - e7
3. Nb1 - c3 /  h7 - h6
4. Ng1 - f3 /  g7 - g5
5.  h2 - h4 /  f7 - f6
6.  h4 x g5 /  d7 - d5
7.  g5 x f6 / Ne7 - g6
8.  e4 - e5 / Qd8 - d7
9. Bf1 - d3 / Qd7 - f7



I thought awful lot about this move yes it is obvious. But what I was thinking about is what will happen next. Yes I did kinda put my self in a spot
( Lesson : Do not play this way! This is a great example of why you should keep pawn moves to a minimum. )

Anyway Possible Moves by white and why

N-R4 Frees the Queen but at the cost of a Kinght
N-N5 Same
N-N1 or R2 does the same but is is a weaking move
BxN weaken white and Puts the Black Queen at a very good square
B-N5 is easy to rebuffed by P-B3 and then the question of why did White not play that earlier?
N-N5 again P-B3
Q-Q2 look like a possible strong move
BxP loses a Bishop for a pawn ( BxB RxB RxR: rook up for black )
B-k3 kinda temp locks White Queen out
B-Q2 same
O-O Might work as long a White Bishop can help protect Kn2 which White's last move weaken

Enough for now

[c-square]

I thought awful lot about this move yes it is obvious. But what I was thinking about is what will happen next. Yes I did kinda put my self in a spot ( Lesson : Do not play this way! This is a great example of why you should keep pawn moves to a minimum. )

I don't think the number of pawn moves is the issue, as I've made more pawn moves than you have.  I think the lesson to be learned is that when you make pawn moves, make them so they open up your other pieces.

    White  /  Black
                   
1.   d2 - d4 /  e7 - e6
2.   e2 - e4 / Ng8 - e7
3.  Nb1 - c3 /  h7 - h6
4.  Ng1 - f3 /  g7 - g5
5.   h2 - h4 /  f7 - f6
6.   h4 x g5 /  d7 - d5
7.   g5 x f6 / Ne7 - g6
8.   e4 - e5 / Qd8 - d7
9.  Bf1 - d3 / Qd7 - f7
10. Nf3 - h4 /



I'm going to force the knight trade.  It opens up my queen and will bring out my rook.  

A note on even-value trades: When you are ahead in pieces, usually an even-value trade (e.g. pawn for pawn, knight for knight or bishop, queen for queen, etc..) is advantageous.  When you are down in pieces, it's usually disadvantageous.  This is because, the fewer pieces there are on the board, the bigger a piece advantage becomes.  For example, at the beginning of the game, if you are ahead by a knight, it's not that big a deal.  There's still lots of other pieces your opponent can use to attack you with.  At the end of the game, when there are only a few pieces on the board, having an extra knight can be huge.  So, that's my thinking here in forcing the knight trade.

Now, a couple of fun exercises:
(If you post an answer to these exercises, please do so inside a spoiler tag.  Thx!)

Spoiler: Exercise #1 (Beginner to Intermediate)

One of the moves black could have made was 9. ... / Ng6xe5:

This move would have lost him his queen, if not the game.

Exercise #1
What moves can white make to guarantee that black either loses his queen or loses the game?  The answer has to be one where, no matter what moves black makes in response, there is no possible way he can get out of it.

I'd suggest first trying to figure it out in your head.  If you want a little help, then click on the board above and try playing with the pieces.  Finally, you can check out the hints below.

Hint (in white): It takes up to three moves (depending on how black responds)

Bigger Hint (in white): If you want to limit your opponent's ability to move, put pressure on his pieces

Spoiler: Exercise #2 (Advanced)

Another move black could have made was 9. ... / Ng6-e7:



This move would have lost him his rook.

EDIT: Callid found a move that lets black save his rook, so this example isn't valid anymore.  It's still good practice to look at the board and figure out how I tried to get the rook, and find the move that Callid found (that I missed!!) that lets black's rook get away.

Exercise #2
What moves can white make to guarantee the capture of black's rook.  Again, the answer has to be one where, no matter what moves black makes in response, there is no way for black to get out of it.  (EDIT: Okay, there is one set of moves black can do to save his rook, but it involves sacrificing his queen.)  The loss of a lesser white piece (knight, bishop, pawn) in capturing the rook is acceptable.

Try to do it in your head first.  If you need help, click on the board above and play with the pieces.  Finally, if you need a little more help, check out the hints below.

Hint (in white): It takes up to four moves (depending on how black responds)

Bigger Hint (in white): You'll want to use your knight

In both exercises, you'll have to consider all the possible ways black can respond to your moves.  Don't let black get away!

[Tanner-kun]

Spoiler: Exercise 1

Skewering the queen to the king. Black cant move the queen because it would put the king in check. If the queen recaptures the Nc3xb5 takes the queen.

Spoiler: Exercise 2

If pawn take knight, then rook takes rook. If white defends his rook with the knight then

[c-square]

Spoiler: Exercise 1

Skewering the queen to the king. Black cant move the queen because it would put the king in check. If the queen recaptures the Nc3xb5 takes the queen.

Nice try, however, that doesn't work because:

Spoiler:

Black can just move his pawn forward to protect the queen (and threaten the bishop!!).

Try again.  It's going to take more than just one move to get that queen.

Spoiler: Exercise 2

If pawn take knight, then rook takes rook. If white defends his rook with the knight then

You've got the first move right, however as you saw above, skewering the queen doesn't work.  How else can you keep black under pressure?

Finally, I re-read exercise #2 and realized that the wording I used might have been misleading.  I've updated it to make it clearer.

[Callid]

@ c-square:

Spoiler: #1

Ne5: Queen can only move to d1 or d3; d1 results in Bg6#; d3 in Bg6+ Kd1 Nf7+ K?? Sd6:

Spoiler: #2

I may be mistaken, but have you thought about h5 after Ng5? Because with that, Qh5+ becomes impossible

[c-square]

@ c-square:

Spoiler: #1

Ne5: Queen can only move to d1 or d3; d1 results in Bg6#; d3 in Bg6+ Kd1 Nf7+ K?? Sd6:

Yup!  That's the solution to Exercise #1.  If anyone is interested in having the moves displayed visually, let me know and I'll post the boards.

Spoiler: #2

I may be mistaken, but have you thought about h5 after Ng5? Because with that, Qh5+ becomes impossible

 No, I missed that move!  

Spoiler:

Although you can still take the black knight with your pawn, black moving h5 lets the rook get away!  Thanks for finding that.  I'll update the exercise accordingly.

[sstimson]

I don't think the number of pawn moves is the issue, as I've made more pawn moves than you have.  I think the lesson to be learned is that when you make pawn moves, make them so they open up your other pieces.

     White  /  Black
                   
1.   d2 - d4 /  e7 - e6
2.   e2 - e4 / Ng8 - e7
3.  Nb1 - c3 /  h7 - h6
4.  Ng1 - f3 /  g7 - g5
5.   h2 - h4 /  f7 - f6
6.   h4 x g5 /  d7 - d5
7.   g5 x f6 / Ne7 - g6
8.   e4 - e5 / Qd8 - d7
9.  Bf1 - d3 / Qd7 - f7
10. Nf3 - h4 / Ng6 x h4

I'm going to force the knight trade.  It opens up my queen and will bring out my rook. 

A note on even-value trades: When you are ahead in pieces, usually an even-value trade (e.g. pawn for pawn, knight for knight or bishop, queen for queen, etc..) is advantageous.  When you are down in pieces, it's usually disadvantageous.  This is because, the fewer pieces there are on the board, the bigger a piece advantage becomes.  For example, at the beginning of the game, if you are ahead by a knight, it's not that big a deal.  There's still lots of other pieces your opponent can use to attack you with.  At the end of the game, when there are only a few pieces on the board, having an extra knight can be huge.  So, that's my thinking here in forcing the knight trade.

First this is NOT a forced trade. But even though I HATE doing what the other player wants, I will do it

However just so others know there are lesser moves I could have made

P-B4 hits the end of your chain and brings out the bishop
R-N1 defends the knight with a second piece
Q-N1 moves the queen away from a pin and allows the King to move away as well
N-K2 again sacrifices the Knight to remove the pawn
NxP  breaks up your pawn chain
N-B3 brings out the knight
N-Q2 brings out the knight to help on the kings side
B-Q2 brings out the bishop
P-N2 creates a opening for the bishop, and helps P-B4's attack on the queen pawn
P-KR4 opens a safe spot for the bishop

Next why I did not try three moves I really wanted to play
Q-N1 if P-B7 with a pawn fork then QxP BUT You will next play B-N6 pinning and winning the Queen  ( QxB, NxQ )

NxP if B-N6 then NxB but you are more likely to play PxN and my KN3 remains weak

R-N1 if NxN then (RxN)? BxR QxB Q-R5 QxQ RxQ and nothing is left to protect the Rook pawn

Spoiler:

Yes the Bishop is there but remember this C has 8 pawn to my 6 (two up, after the above exchanges that increases as he get a rook for a bishop increasing his lead to 4 [2 pawns + Rook(5)- Bishop(3)]
If he plays BxP he gains even more { 8 vs 5 (3 up) + Rook(5) - Bishop(3) for 5 up}
Also a complete file (rook) and another passed pawn (King Knight)

I really wanted to keep your Rook at R1 but oh well Your next Move will be RxN
and as least O-O will be out

Of course If I did play R-N1 would you have played as above?

[c-square]

     White  /  Black
                   
1.   d2 - d4 /  e7 - e6
2.   e2 - e4 / Ng8 - e7
3.  Nb1 - c3 /  h7 - h6
4.  Ng1 - f3 /  g7 - g5
5.   h2 - h4 /  f7 - f6
6.   h4 x g5 /  d7 - d5
7.   g5 x f6 / Ne7 - g6
8.   e4 - e5 / Qd8 - d7
9.  Bf1 - d3 / Qd7 - f7
10. Nf3 - h4 / Ng6 x h4
11. Rh1 x h4 /

I really wanted to keep your Rook at R1 but oh well Your next Move will be RxN
and as least O-O will be out

Yup.  I want to complete the trade.

Of course If I did play R-N1 would you have played as above?

Hmm... Let me think about this.

Spoiler: Black: Rh8-h7

Yeah, my response would have been 11. Nh4 x g6.  It's usually a good idea to take a piece advantage when it's offered (as long as it's not a trap).