Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[KangarooGirl]

*is still against children being lovers, including Ai and Conan*

Good point, though we've had ridiculous pairings before anyway. But friends at least should be OK.

[Commi-Ninja]

Friends I don't have a problem with at all.  It's the 'lovers' part that bothers me.

[Schillok]

8) Special-Investigate works only on previous nights

"Also something I'd like to see (perhaps not in Dus's round, but later) is for special investigate to be changed to solely be the ability to check things in the past. This way, we could give the current Special Investigators to be Special Investigate OR Investigate, and introduce Officer Tome (the crime scene guy) as a police officer who can only Special Investigate, which would make him not just an upgraded james/kir."

- It makes sense I think. Not needed right now unless we make new roles and/or add new abilities to our roles. But when we do it might be useful, just like Akonyl said.


9) Criminals

Well, this is the main suggestion, started by Dus with Natsuki.
Criminals will be our 3rd faction. There will only be none or one of them in each game (unless we become too many players and the GM wishes for a faster game). There are several possible roles to keep town and BO wondering who they are dealing with - consequently some will be more beneficial for the town, some for the BO.

I suggest the following general rules for all roles:

- All start killing during night 2. So during night 1 they will not kill a player yet. During the following nights they have to keep killing (unless an ability/restriction says otherwise)
- They all act before the BO with their killing.
- Either they all use erase on the body, or none of them does. (Should be discussed first.)
- They will lose when they are arrested or dead at the end of the game, no matter which side won.

- Suggestion 1: They could have some kind of "Black Suitcase" that allows them to use a fake version (get no results from their action) of any of the other criminal roles. That way they could pretend to be one of them, while actually being a completely different one. Maybe we could limit how often that can be used though.
- Suggestion 2: If they are lovers with a townie or best friends, the lover/Sonoko will not win with the town/BO anymore like normal. Instead they will win when their criminal parter wins. Obviously they can't be partner with someone they are supposed to kill.
If they are lovers with a BO, they will be treated like a BO-town pair. They have to kill all the BO and all the townies.  



Criminals:

A) Numabuchi Kichiro, Paranoid Ex-Lab-rat
Status: Paranoid
Night Action: Murder
Night Action: Stake-Out (Automatic)
Interrogation: Not BO?
Scent: No
Disguise: No
Items: Alcohol
Observe: Adult

Status: Paranoid
- Due to his paranoia, Numabuchi automatically stakes himself out. This can be investigated just as any normal stake-out.
- If Numabuchi goes two nights in a row without killing someone, his paranoia gets the best of him and he commits suicide that night.

Night Action: Murder
- During any night phase, Numabuchi may choose to not kill someone.


Winning condition:
Numabuchi wins if he is alive (and not arrested) at the end of the game, no matter which side has won. (He manged to hide himself from the BO and could flee, no matter which side won the conflict).

- I think he is good the way he is. Wants to be alive (and free) at the end of the conflict and has no scruples to kill. Dangerous to town and BO, so both sides might consider leaving him around once they find him.


B) Natsuki Koshizumi, bloodthirsty Teenage Detective of Southern Japan            
Night action: (Investigate1 and Special Investigate 1) OR Interrogate            
Night Action: Murder          
Prep. Action: Hitlist            
Interrogation: Not BO            
Scent: No            
Disguise: No            
Items: Panties, head gear, gun            
Observe: Teenager            
           
Hitlist:            
-During prep phase, you have to send the GM a list of five other players (no, you can't put your own name on the hitlist)            
- In the nights 2 - 5, four of them will be killed, you can decide which one to kill for each night            
- Your kills will follow the same rules as a kill supported with bribe, meaning they can't be hindered in any way            
- The killing will continue even if you die before the end of night 5.            
- You have to kill 4 people, but you can add a new name to the list if only three people are still alive            
- APTX (Sherry) > Your kill > BO's kill: This means if the BO and you both decide to kill the same person during the night, the BO will fail their kill. If Sherry APTXs someone however, you fail and have to kill someone else instead later on            
           
           
Winning conditions:            
Usual conditions for a town role, but looses if you're arrested or lynched.


- The town-friendly criminal who will do her best to get rid of the BO as quickly as possible.  



C) Bomber-from-the-Matsuda-case (Don't kow his name)

Night Action: Murder
Night Action:
Interrogation: Not BO
Scent: No
Disguise: No
Items: Alcohol, Car-Keys
Observe: Adult

Winning condition:
The bomber wins if all police are dead and he is still alive and not arrested.


Notes:
- The police-hating bomber from the Matsuda case. Obviously he is very useful for the BO and the town should try to get rid of him quickly once they know he is around.
- I think he needs an ability. But which? Blame maybe (he wanted to blame the police for not stopping him)? Also some kind of ability that allows him to blend in a bit might be useful. Open for suggestions here.


D: Vengeful Killer (Example: Teiji Moriya (Culprit from Movie 1))

Night action: Steal (?)          
Night Action: Murder                    
Interrogation: Not BO            
Scent: No            
Disguise: No            
Items: Alcohol, Glasses, Headgear, Car-Keys            
Observe: Adult            

During night 1 he will gain a role that he wishes to kill. If his target gets killed in any other way (lynched, APTX, by BO) they get a new target.

Winning condition:
The Vengeful Killer wins when he killed his target. He will lose if the game ended without doing so.


Note:
- His target could be BO or town.
- He will want to draw out the game if possible and find his target. He does not care which side wins afterwards, as long as he got his revenge.


E: -
Open for more suggestions. 

[KangarooGirl]

8) Agreed

9)
A. Interrogate as Not BO because he's run away so he's not anymore. Just like Ai and Akai aren't BO.
C. I think something like Observe or Stake Out so he might be able to find police?

[Kleene Onigiri]

Criminals sounds fun ^^ Should be tested. But more than once to decide if it's good or not.

@bomber:
Blame could be good for him I think it should also count when a police officer is arrested (through blame for example).
Will he get to know if there are police officers left? I guess so. But will he know the concrete number? Or just "There are still police officers left in the game" without knowing how many exactly?

@D: Vengeful Killer  (First I thought that D: was a smiley XD)
Stealing? Depends on what character it is. But I don't think stealing fits for every character.
Could also give him observe instead. Or stealing and observe?

[Kleene Onigiri]

8) Agreed

9)
A. Interrogate as Not BO because he's run away so he's not anymore. Just like Ai and Akai aren't BO.
C. I think something like Observe or Stake Out so he might be able to find police?

@c: if we include the handcuffs for police, it would be good to give the bomber stealing as an ability

[xpon]

but what will they investigate in night 1?

[Schillok]

Ohh yeah, there is something I forgot: That an unsuccessful killing will not increase the "counter" for the player who failed to determine whose turn it is to kill next.

Meaning that even though Abs. failed to kill he was able to try again before everyone else had tried to kill. The problem with this rule is: It can make the BO lose horribly.

Imagine, there is only 1 BO member left who did not kill yet. This member gets discombobulated - his kill fails. Next night he has to kill again. He gets discombobulated again. And again. And again. So the BO will never get another night kill until they somehow manage to get rid of all tricksters, APTX their own member or persuade the town to kill that one member. So a huge number of BO (exposed or not) could be hindered by just 1 single member without a chance to break out of it, especially if they have no APTX left to get rid of their own member or the tricksters.


I think we should return it to the way it was before: Count the killing attempts to detemine which BO can kill. So if a BO failed he would have to wait until all the other ones had tried again as well. That way the BO can't get locked down.

---

Sounds good  But I don't know if Vodka needs that. And Korn is good too. But it wouldn't hurt giving them that ability.
Would be also investigated like the betrayal from Kir, right? So, same Keyword for that action.

Well, Bourbon can track down a certain player + look for a certain role in the game. While that ability is more random. So Bourbon wouldn't get useless :3

The problem with Korn was that he is weaker than Chianti. Simply because observe is better than stake-out, especially for BO. So there is a need for him to be changed.

I think Betrayal can not be investigated, since it has no target. Similarly to deduce (or spy), which also don't have targets and therefore can not be found out by investigations.


Not sure if Vodka needs it either. But... it was a while since I have last seen him in action. And he does not seem that exciting for the BO to have at the moment.

6) Give Gem

I dunno :V There was also a different suggestion of bribing the BO with a Gem.
If he can get in contact with a police over and over again, it could make him too strong maybe. But for that he needs to be stolen from. So hm...

Well, he is very dependent on having a thief steal a gem anyway. So I wanted to at least make him less dependent on Nakamori since he isn't very strong on his own.
Though, we might want to consider what happened if Vermouth disguises as him. Give gem - have Akemi steal it - find police - poison police - rinse and repeat sound pretty dangerous. So I guess just like Vermouth can not arrest for blamed action she should also not get in contact with a police for stolen gems. Same for Kid for... well, giving out a gem, stealing it himself so he can get in contact with a police sounds CRAZY!

7) Betrayal

But it will still not reveal the target? (like who was slandered)

And for Kir, basically Kir can additionally find out that anokata used Bribe then? Or will she know another ability that wasn't shown before?
Also, in case vodka and Korn get that reverse betrayal, she will know which one did it (since before, every BO had a different ability)

No, won't reveal target. Just like before.
Also, the list was mainly changed to not have to update it every time we add a new ability. As long as we keep track of what can't be learned by this ability there won't be any problem.
So yes, Kir will learn now if Bribe (Pisco) or Betrayal (Anokata) was used. But again, not on who. (Though it would be rather obvious in case of Bribe)

5) Sounds OK, but seriously, when do you find just one DB?

When do you find just Ran? Or just Kazuha? Or just Chiba? Just Camel? Just Korn?
There are a lot of characters that appear only in combination with others. But that does not mean they always have to. Beside: Wouldn't it be the same the way the DBs are now? We had two of them together all games up to now. How often do you find two DBs, canon wise?
So I don't think there should be a huge problem with that. The only thing I worry is that their role is rather weak to begin with. But since I never played them, maybe I am the wrong to decide that. 

*is still against children being lovers, including Ai and Conan*

Well, I just wanted to have the DB children being treated equally to Ai and Conan. If they had the chance to be lovers, then the other children should have as well. (And to be fair, their chances are lower than for any other character beside Sonoko, since a second DB would disqualify them immediately.) 
But I would have been okay with not allowing children (including Ai and Conan) as lovers at all.

As for Vodka, I understand your point, Schillok, but I don't know if it's entirely on the mark.  When his abilities are used properly, it can be pretty devastating to the town (see Round 13...).  However, I don't have a problem with adding an ability for him.

Yeah, he is stronger than Korn IMO, so I was hesitant to give him that ability as well. But comparing him to the usefulness of most other BO roles he pales in comparison.

A. Interrogate as Not BO because he's run away so he's not anymore. Just like Ai and Akai aren't BO.

Well. Makes sense. On the other hand there should be a reason for him to be in danger from both sides I think. The way he is now he might benefit a bit too much from cooperating with the town. If that cooperation gets harder it might be more balanced. Though, this will probably need a bit of play-testing to find out what is best.

C. I think something like Observe or Stake Out so he might be able to find police?

Stake-Out won't help him find police. Though, Observe is a good fit I guess. He was observing Teitan Highschool when he got caught after all. 
Beside, it might make a child getting contacted by an observer a bit more cautionary. That child might lead him to a police by accident otherwise, even if it was a DB and excluded him being Chianti already.

So I would go with observe for now. (It also helps him to find police since he can ignore teenagers and children. Though, it might endanger the BO who were supposed to benefit from him...)

Criminals sounds fun ^^ Should be tested. But more than once to decide if it's good or not.

Yeah. Unfortunately this will take a long time, since they won't be in every game and only 1 will be there each time. Still, most things can only be balanced after some testing.

@bomber:
Blame could be good for him  I think it should also count when a police officer is arrested (through blame for example).
Will he get to know if there are police officers left? I guess so. But will he know the concrete number? Or just "There are still police officers left in the game" without knowing how many exactly?

Yeah, I think he should know that he had won once all police are dead and he is still around. Though I am wondering what should happen to him afterwards? Should he leave the game since he had won? Or should he continue, helping whichever side he wants?

Not so sure about Blame. Observe is nice already, maybe he does not need a third ability. But yeah, I guess arrested police (by blame) should count as well. Otherwise he could be unable to win once an officer gets arrested.

@D: Vengeful Killer  (First I thought that D: was a smiley XD)
Stealing? Depends on what character it is. But I don't think stealing fits for every character.
Could also give him observe instead. Or stealing and observe?

Not sure either. But having a third thief might make things interesting. Not only for Jirokichi, but it will also make the BO and town unsure if - when 2 people have been stolen from - KID and Akemi really are both in the game.
But yeah, I guess it depends on which character we use to put into the vengeful criminal role...

@c: if we include the handcuffs for police, it would be good to give the bomber stealing as an ability

I think "handcuffs" are too close to guns, which all police (and FBI) already have anyway. It would just make them easier to be identified as town by KID.

[Akonyl]

@stake-out: I don't think it's useless. Observe is mainly for figuring out roles. With stake-out, you can play more defensive. Since you can use it on your own members. Once it showed that pisco was tricked. Pisco wouldn't have known that, since he didn't do any action that night. I think it was PT. PT then claimed to have been tricked and found commi this way XD
Observe can be "useless" too in case you just find adults. Which is usually not giving you much info alone.

it's not useless, but I just think that chianti's a lot better, as if you know someone has interrogate/investigate, you can narrow it down as to what else they could have, as the only ones that have both are teenagers, and close down on their role a bit. And if you find an adult, that can still be good information if they're something like an interrogator.

And as I said, finding commi with that stakeout was entirely luck

I still wanna change Akai \o/
He could be similar like the snipers. If he get's attacked at night, Akai dies but will also injure his attacker (whether it's BO or not). If he get's lynched, the person he votes for dies.
Also, since APTXing him would hinder his vengeance, maybe vengeance still goes through in case Akai get's lynched? Tho that's not necessary if the change described above is included

I think I recommended that night phase change a while back, but he was given bone-breaking instead.

I don't think stake out is useless, either. If we used it on Kleene that night, we'd know she was slandered immediately and she wouldn't have been lynched. And, like Kleene said, it can help figure out roles too.

at least for me, I'm talking about Korn's Stake Out vs Chianti's Observe. For Korn, stake-out isn't very useful, because he already knows all the things that the BO did and its defensive purposes aren't very common.

That serial killer would be on town-side then?

righto

I don't think I've seen Kogoro with handcuffs and I doubt that they'd let him keep his old ones. I can see Gin having a pair, for some reason, even though there's no logical reason why he'd have them. Vermy, I think should only have it when she's disguised as someone who does. Hakuba, I need someone to confirm that he has a pair to catch KID with.

maybe, but kogoro's pretty vulnerable as-is, with his alcohol only and being drunk at the start. One thing Dus mentioned was that perhaps Kogoro should become sober if his Alcohol gets stolen, which might be decent.

- Actually, I thought it was already this way. Unless the killer was discombobulated (in which case the action failed, meaning you can't be arrested for it and it can't be investigated), "killing" and "attacking" are synonymous.

maybe, but then this would just be a clarification, which is good anyway.

3)New ability for: Korn, Mafia Sniper & Vodka, Mafia Intimidator

I think those two roles are a bit underwhelming at the moment. So to make them a bit stronger I would suggest the following new ability for both of them (which they can use together with their other ability). Well, actually it is not new: It is just a reverse form of Kir's Betrayal.

Betrayal/Reverse Betrayal/Watching
- Role with that action: Korn, Vodka
- Night action, can be covered
- If he decides to use betrayal, he randomly get's to know one activity of the town that was done on that night.
- He will only know which role performed the action, not the target


So it would be another way for the BO to collect "names". The later the game gets, the more powerful it becomes. Considering both roles have no "natural protection" against being exposed they have a harder time reaching the late game anyway.
Also, it has some synergy with their other abilities. Vodka will know that the player he discombobulated is NOT the role he just learned and Korn might have found the role he found by stake-out.
Of course this new ability might leave Bourbon less useful now... On the other hand, it is random and not able to find day-only roles.

Korn, maybe, Vodka, I say no. Vodka may not be a powerful information-gatherer, but Vodka is definitely a role I like to see when I'm BO. Discombobulate is very useful as a defensive tool, as if you learn of a possible interrogation, rather than having to slander the correct target, you can discombobulate the interrogator instead. Also, people who are possibly protected can be chain-discombobulated to keep them from using their abilities, rather than having to try to kill them and risk failure.


-----


As to the other points:
Special investigate:
Of course I agree.

Criminals:
I agree with the idea of criminals, but I'm not sure they should be a third faction. A third faction only really makes sense imo if they're banded together as well, as they're in a bad enough position already. It's already been proven how hard it is to win as town/BO lovers, even with the protection ability, so having someone who has no way to protect themselves or blend into the town have a win condition that sometimes conflicts with the town (which they're technically on) is bad imo as it's likely that they're just gonna end up losing (especially since most of them require the person to be alive at the end, which isn't the case for the majority of players on either side).

Also, Numabuchi's win condition would lead to his "best move" to be to just ally with the BO, because they have no way of arresting him, and if the BO has extra killings, they'll win much quicker than the town would (as his killings would be guaranteed to benefit the BO, then), which makes things a little bizarre considering he just fled from them.

Numabuchi's role is based around him being flimsy and pretty easy to find, so requiring him to survive the game is a bit bad imo.

[Detective Tommy]

What are the main changes, new things we are thinking about? I don't know where to start reading. D:
Theres been like 60 new pages since I've last been here..

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Kogoro: Sorry for writing it here and not in the discussion thread (tho I paste it then)
Since there are more ways for Kogoro to get sober now, I think Kogoro should always be sober from the start, even if Eri, Ran, Conan or Shinichi aren't in the game.

Conditions to get sober would be:
- One of those roles: Eri, Ran, Conan or Shinichi dies (of course, a disguised role doesn't count)
- If Ran get's injured [disguise too? I think also without disguise? Tho that could tell Kogoro that Ran is a disguised player] (it won't be public that ran got injured. Kogoro will just get a PM for himself)
- If Kogoro get's his alcohol stolen
- When the 6th townie dies, he runs out of booze and will get sober, meaning his interrogation will return the correct result that night.

[Schillok]

Criminals:
I agree with the idea of criminals, but I'm not sure they should be a third faction. A third faction only really makes sense imo if they're banded together as well, as they're in a bad enough position already. It's already been proven how hard it is to win as town/BO lovers, even with the protection ability, so having someone who has no way to protect themselves or blend into the town have a win condition that sometimes conflicts with the town (which they're technically on) is bad imo as it's likely that they're just gonna end up losing (especially since most of them require the person to be alive at the end, which isn't the case for the majority of players on either side).

Also, Numabuchi's win condition would lead to his "best move" to be to just ally with the BO, because they have no way of arresting him, and if the BO has extra killings, they'll win much quicker than the town would (as his killings would be guaranteed to benefit the BO, then), which makes things a little bizarre considering he just fled from them.

Numabuchi's role is based around him being flimsy and pretty easy to find, so requiring him to survive the game is a bit bad imo.

Mhh, I see your point. I was just taking the winning condition from what Dus had made for Natsuki.
It makes sense for that role - we don't want the player playing Natsuki asking to be arrested herself after her first kill, because she is afraid of killing more townies. Or otherwise try to get poisoned by exposing her role to "protect the rest of the town". There needs to be a motivation for surviving (and staying free).

It is easier for the Police-Hater and the Vengeful Criminal - they only want their task completed (yeah, PO inspiration), they don't care what happens afterwards or which side wins.

Natsuki is harder, since she wants the town to win but has to continue killing people from her list. Maybe she could be allowed to win once she has her 4 kills completed, no matter if she gets killed or arrested afterwards (only if the town wins, of course). Though, it is hard to give a "logic reason" for that winning condition, it would just be a game mechanic.
Maybe someone else has a good idea here. Otherwise we probably need a lot more redesigning for that role.
We also could make Natsuki the Vengeful Criminal. Since that is what motivated her to kill that North-detective as well. Just this time she will blame someone else for her friends misfortune. She would be a good fit. Though, interrogation hardly helps to achieve her goal (Special Investigate does, though).



Numabuchi... is even harder. Maybe we can leave the old "survive to win" condition, but add some other way for him to win? Like by killing a BO he would be allowed to win with the town? That way the BO can not work with him, because all he needs to do is kill one of them and he has his victory guaranteed. Would make him the opposite of the police-hater. Though, it does not have any synergy with his "paranoid self-stakeout". Again, more input on what we do with him might be good.

[Schillok]

@Kogoro: Sorry for writing it here and not in the discussion thread (tho I paste it then)
Since there are more ways for Kogoro to get sober now, I think Kogoro should always be sober from the start, even if Eri, Ran, Conan or Shinichi aren't in the game.

Conditions to get sober would be:
- One of those roles: Eri, Ran, Conan or Shinichi dies (of course, a disguised role doesn't count)
- If Ran get's injured [disguise too? I think also without disguise? Tho that could tell Kogoro that Ran is a disguised player] (it won't be public that ran got injured. Kogoro will just get a PM for himself)
- If Kogoro get's his alcohol stolen
- When the 6th townie dies, he runs out of booze and will get sober, meaning his interrogation will return the correct result that night.

You mean: He starts DRUNK, right? Still, I am not sure about the "Ran in disguise part" and everything. Since it is usually not known how a killing was prevented, there is no need for him to know that a disguised Ran protected and not the real one, right? Just tell him nothing.

[Akonyl]

Numabuchi... is even harder. Maybe we can leave the old "survive to win" condition, but add some other way for him to win? Like by killing a BO he would be allowed to win with the town? That way the BO can not work with him, because all he needs to do is kill one of them and he has his victory guaranteed. Would make him the opposite of the police-hater. Though, it does not have any synergy with his "paranoid self-stakeout". Again, more input on what we do with him might be good.

His purpose is to kill the BO anyway, I don't really see why that should be made his specific win condition. That's sort of like making Conan's win condition that he has to successfully interrogate a BO, and if he doesn't he doesn't get to win. If it's something that the player's going to be trying to do actively in the first place, you shouldn't penalize them for when they don't manage to carry it out.

I don't like the idea of any players on any side having to themselves survive the entire game to win with the rest of their team, tbh.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Uh, yeah. Starts drunk of course :x Sorry, kinda busy and wrote that fast D:

And what do you mean "tell him nothing"?
Because if Ran get's injured and Kogoro get's sober, Kogoro should get a PM that he got sober.

So, if there was no killing and Kogoro got sober, kogoro will know that Ran protected someone.
And if someone is disguised as Ran and get's injured:

a) Kogoro doesn't get sober, because it's not the real ran:
Ran* tells Kogoro that it was her that protected someone. Kogoro would then know that this Ran is disguised (in case it's really Ran)

b) Kogoro get's sober, even if the Ran that got injured was someone disguised
Then, Kogoro wouldn't know that Ran is disguised (in case the Ran player PMs Kogoro)

Of course, you could say: who would tell his role to someone? But Ran being injured is kinda useless then. So she can only be proven with special investigate or identify :V (afaik)

Maybe I didn't say it clear enough, but that's what I meant