ESPIONAGE: Round Four (Spy & Informants Win!!)

[seed12]

They don't have a list? Does the spy have one? I'm new :p

[Jd-]

Well, Jd-, as past GM I've seen how you play as informant and already decided you behave different. As of now I have two people I suspect of being informant, but as of now I'm not yet revealing who as I want to make sure my suspicions are correct by rereading the topic.
However, I do believe Jd- is a valuable ally, so in case he is wrong about Fujiwara I would rather have people vote me instead.

As further subjective evidence of me being a civilian, I want to note that I put myself up for arrest should my Fujiwara hunch have been wrong even though--if I were on the evil side--I never had to. In fact, I could have just made those posts minus that provision and it would've still had enough impact to see the vote through. However, as a civilian, I know it's important to be as cooperative and act in the best interests of our side as much as possible. If I'm wrong on this (and I'm not convinced that I am), I'll 1) be sad to have lost a valuable civilian and 2) won't fight being arrested over it if people think it should come to that.

Let's see how things go with this vote; my vote is in. Sorry to Fujiwara if I'm wrong, absolutely, but I'm going with what I think.

They don't have a list? Does the spy have one? I'm new :p

The Spy and Informants can only pretend to have a list; they have other abilities that make up for it. The Detective doesn't have one either; with their ability, they kind of make their own "list", albeit a different sort.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

And with that we can conclude that seed12 is most probably civilian

[seed12]

Ok, thanks Jd- for the information! And yes Yuri, I am :p

[bash7353]

I'm glad voting Jd- is off the table for now because, as I said before, I believe him to be a Civilian. I will say, though, that I'm surprised how quickly and easily Fuji walked back her accusation. Jd- saying he's okay with being voted if it turns out that he was wrong about Fuji is something that I'd expect him to do regardless of his role, so I don't see how that's evidence suggesting he's innocent after all. But then again, I didn't agree with the reasoning as to why he was suspicious in the first place, so who am I to complain?

I don't know who I'm gonna vote yet, but like I said before, it won't be Jd- or Fuji. I hope many people will make the decision not to listen to Jd- and not vote Fuji. Maybe I'll go Ansai 'cause it seems there's a bit of security there that he's not the Detective.

And with that we can conclude that seed12 is most probably civilian

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Don't think it'd be the first time a newbie feigns ignorance. But for now I'll lean towards Civilian as well.

[Jd-]

I understand googleearth's position, but all the same, I think it's important to recognize that if Fujiwara isn't arrested here, we will be in a difficult position. There is legitimate cause for suspicion on two fronts (my initial suspicion, whether it's considered entirely sound or not) and Fujiwara backtracking on the suspicion of me (something that could've been done as both an Informant and a civilian).

Of course, we can't discount that googleearth is the other Informant (not saying this is the case; I see you as a civilian) and is trying to save Fujiwara by also voting for Ansai (who hasn't done anything wrong that we know of other than being inactive). I think you also have to admit that is a possibility, however slight.

My vote is in for Fujiwara; I think it's the right move for where we are in the game right now. I will take responsibility if I'm wrong and people think I did it as a member of the evil side.

In summary of all I have said: I am voting for Fujiwara and will take responsibility if we are wrong

[Stopwatch]

Jd-, if Fujiwara turns out to be Civilian, I seriously doubt you'd get lynched.

I'm not commenting on anything right now. My nerves are frazzled from stuff so :/.

[bash7353]

Of course, we can't discount that googleearth is the other Informant (not saying this is the case; I see you as a civilian) and is trying to save Fujiwara by also voting for Ansai (who hasn't done anything wrong that we know of other than being inactive). I think you also have to admit that is a possibility, however slight.

I am trying to save Fuji. For the same reason I was defending you, Jd-. I think you guys are Civilians. And I do admit that there's a possibility that I'm wrong about Fuji - as it is possible that I'm wrong about you, Jd-. There's no absolute certainty in this game. But I read through the topic and came to the conclusion that you are most likely innocent. So that's how I'm gonna vote.

The reason I would go with Ansai rather than someone else is that some people have mentioned not to have him on their list, which would - if they're telling the truth - indicate he's not the Detective. I don't wanna arrest the Detective here, so going with the player least likely to be that role seems like the right thing to do here.

[PhantomWriter]

I don't think we should vote for either of you...

Agreed. Unless perhaps that is the goal of one or both of them? Hear me out for a bit, because this is getting rather convoluted already and we're only on day two. Perhaps they're so adamant about who to arrest and 'arrest me next' as a sort of act, because no Spy or Informant would want to get themselves taken out of the game so early in.

On the other hand, they could be civilians that are doing so, so that they are taken immediately off of the suspect list and help out the civilians and detectives narrow down who the spy and informants are. Or perhaps one is a detective who is trying to use that gamble so that people won't vote for them and people then assume they're not a detective, but instead one of the other three categories? Though that really runs the risk that people will find their behavior suspicious and thus vote for them.

I forgot how convoluted these sort of games get with the "I know you know I know" stuff lol.

[Jd-]

I understand, and I wish it were an easier situation.

If Fujiwara is let go now and turns out to be an Informant, we will have done grave damage to the civilian effort going forward. Even if we just stopped listening to what she suggested (we wouldn't, rightfully, given this is a vocal, veteran player we're talking about here), we will never really know the truth until the end of the game or something finally does happen (an arrest, very unlikely kill, etc). If we leave a suspect out there that long, we don't know what they're capable of until it's too late.

I think it's worth it to gamble on this arrest. If we are right, we will be one Informant down and will give the Detective a lot more to go on later on with their Investigate results (as mentioned in my earlier post). The lack of certainty gives me pause too, but I put a lot of thought into what to say, when, and exactly how much to mention.

My suggestion is still vote for Fujiwara. I think this is what will give us the best chance to win.

[Jd-]

To add to that:

Right now, as civilians, we are in a prime position to take control of the game if I'm right about Fujiwara. If we take out one of the three Spy-side players, that will be a huge advantage. Losing one civilian is obviously not good for us, and especially when it's a strong player like this, but the fact of the matter is that if there's even a reasonable suspicion against Fujiwara, we really can't disregard it.

There's only a little bit of time left to get in your votes. I'm doing my best to help give us some direction, but if we don't vote for this together, we may not have another chance to get this game going in our favor before it ends.

[Jd-]

To the people below that, to my recent memory, haven't committed to a vote either way (apologies if so, been handling a lot of posts):

Yuri Iwamoto
Jellitto
Trickster
Kaito Lady
miakakiri
Togop
RoboG55
Ansai

I am requesting that you join me in voting for Fujiwara, whom I believe to be an Informant. If I'm wrong, please put me at the forefront of the voting line tomorrow. If you believe I'm evil and want to vote me, I won't resist arrest whatsoever.

There's only an hour'ish left to vote. This is the last thing I can do to see that the word gets out there; I have reason to believe Fujiwara is an Informant and plenty of people are fairly sure I'm a civilian now (I am). I'm definitely not the Spy as evidenced by Day 1, and I'm putting myself on the line for the second time in a row to serve civilian interests.

It's up to you guys now; I've done my part to the best of my ability in the current situation.

[Jellitto]

I repeated my vote for Yuri today.

I thought about Fujiwara being an Informant a moment yesterday but dismissed the idea quickly since I really didn´t have any evidence for or against it. The reason I´m not probably changing my vote to Fujiwara is because I don´t trust you Jd- very much either. I´m still not completely sure though as I might change my vote if something better comes to mind since I´m going to be here all the way till the phase change.

[Fujiwara]

Since there’s a good chance that I’ll be voted out today, I decided to leave some last remarks …

The Last Will and Testament of Fujiwara

1. @googleearth:
You misunderstood me. I didn’t exonerate Jd- because he offered to let himself be arrested. Rather, because he was so relentlessly attacking me, convinced of my guilt, leaving no room for doubt, I believe that he argued himself into a corner that it would be hard to get out of once it’s proven that I’m Civilian. His offer has nothing to do with it. I think there are way less risky ways of getting rid of me if he’s on the spy side.
Also, as I said in my original post where I mentioned that I’m suspicious of Jd, unlike Jd, I was never 100% sure of his guilt, I just thought his actions were suspicious and wanted to a) point that out in case I get killed and 2) see whether other people thought the same.
But I don’t think it’s a good idea to remove both of us from the game one after another when chances are we’re both innocent. And since I’m travelling all day today and didn’t know when I would have internet again, I decided to quickly post a retraction of my statement. The spy must be really happy with the current situation anyway.

2. Why I suspected Jd- and why he is suspicious of me:
Jd- and I have now played two rounds of Espionage together and I think we have both developed a great respect for the other as a player. So much so, that we project our own ideas onto the other. Jd- says the spy or informant wouldn’t offer themselves as votees for the tie, but the thing is, that’s exactly what I would do if I were on the spy side. Sure, there’s a risk involved, but you can also reap great rewards from establishing your Civilian-ness like that. (Note to self: Think of a new plan for when I’m on the spy side. XD)
So when I saw Jd-, whom I consider a very good and crafty Espionage player, did exactly what I would do if I were on the spy side, well, it’s only natural I got suspicious.
And it seems Jd- was thinking along the same lines when he says that he made up a plan to figure out this round’s equivalent to last round’s Jd- (Informant). I’m not exactly sure what he was looking for, but when he found me doing what he would have done as an informant, he obviously found it suspicious. I can understand that – I’m very paranoid about Jd- being on the other side as well. But it seems that maybe our play styles are rather different in some ways, and projecting our own ideas onto the other isn’t always the best of ideas. ^^

3. On the subject of the spy:
Unfortunately, I don’t have any really useful leads right now. Togop’s mention of Ansai might have been a plan to get information on the detective, but it’s not a strong lead. I still think the non-kill can point in either direction. I don’t think anyone has been established as wholly civilian (except in the eyes of the detective, of course).

4. To the detective:
I think that at least until you get a good lead, it’s probably a good idea to send in the active players with your investigate (like me [if you think I’ll still be around], Jd, Togop, googleearth, Stopwatch) – not because they are very suspicious, but because once you have cleared them of suspicion, you have a better idea whether you can trust them. Of course, while there are still 2 informants in the game, it’ll be really hard to trust anyone, whether or not you’ve established that they’re not the spy.

And on a completely unrelated note, I really like the idea of this whole fight being pre-arranged by Jd- and me. Let’s do that when we’re both on the spy side, Jd-!

[Jd-]

I repeated my vote for Yuri today.

I thought about Fujiwara being an Informant a moment yesterday but dismissed the idea quickly since I really didn´t have any evidence for or against it. The reason I´m not probably changing my vote to Fujiwara is because I don´t trust you Jd- very much either. I´m still not completely sure though as I might change my vote if something better comes to mind since I´m going to be here all the way till the phase change.

I'm not sure how voting for Yuri is better than voting for Fujiwara. Yuri was the one who proposed the tie-vote initiative, right? And she could have very well been the one put into it, because she also volunteered to be one of the subjects. The Spy definitely would not have done so, as she'd have no way out of it if she were taken up on the offer directly. In other words: She's likely not the Spy, so what's left as far as evil roles go is Informant. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but we have a pretty reasonable lead on Fujiwara right now.

If you come with me on this vote, I will fully look into and scrutinize Yuri every phase from here on out until she is fully cleared one way or the other. I believe her to be a civilian, but you may be right--I'm sure that she won't mind us taking a closer look and asking her some questions in the upcoming phases should you join us (assuming she's with me from my alliance proposal earlier).

And on a completely unrelated note, I really like the idea of this whole fight being pre-arranged by Jd- and me. Let’s do that when we’re both on the spy side, Jd-!

[Woah, that's weird! I was thinking the exact same thing! "This is so good that we really have to use this in the future!"]