Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Schillok]

Continuing the discussion about the APTX.

I would add/change:
- The target doesn't know he was targeted (when the poisoning failed)

Yeah, that is what I intended. Did I say different?

- There is a fixed number of APTX4869 for the whole BO (so if a BO dies, they won't lose the APTX4869)

Actually that was intended. I wanted to prevent the BO keeping their APTX too long. If they are at the risk of losing it they might be using it earlier - even if they can't be sure it will work at that time.

- The "fixed number" isn't fixed, but depends on how many townspeople there are (Maybe the variable: x*1/3)

1/3 sounds too much.
And maybe we can make a combination of both variants? For example 2 random BO members have APTX with them. And there are 3 more in the BO pool. If one of the 2 BO with APTX is killed/arrested the capsule they have with them will be lost for the BO. But the 3 in the BO base are save and can be used by anyone.

- Not a specific BO member uses the poison, but the "whole BO" gives the APTX4869 (so Anokata or the current BO leader gives the order who to poison. If the leader dies, a new leader will give the order)

I liked the chance of being sneaky and make it possible for a BO to kill his partner(s) to achieve a lovers victory. 
Usually the BO will work together anyway, so it makes no difference if a specific member uses the APTX or if all of them do.
And if every BO can use it individually it means they can kill more than one person in a single turn. (But only if there are enough BO left. If only 2 are still alive of course they could only poison 2 at a time).

- Should be a Day activity. So if they target the right one, the vote of that person doesn't count anymore (because he died during the day)

I think I agree on the day activity. Prevents the trickster to interfere with it. But I would suggest that person will take part in the lynching normally. Just... directly after the lynching (in the GM post announcing the voting results) the death of the poisoned players is announced.

About the other poison idea:

I also had an idea for poison. But not as a "whole BO ability" but an ability for Elena Miyano and/or Atsushi Miyano (because they are scientists)

- BO poisons someones possession
- All activities concerning him will give no result because that person was poisoned while doing so
- The BO needs to poison the possession during night. The poison holds for 1 day and 1 night.
- works on all abilities
- BO doesn't know who was poisoned
- Poisoned person can't be killed the following night, so they don't know why the killing failed (was healed or protected or poisoned)

e.g.:
- Night 2: Callids rubber duck is poisoned XD
- Sakina is Conan (Night 3): Sakina investigates
1. Xcommando disguised as Vermouth
2. Akonyl killed xpon
3. Callid killed Akonyl / Akonyl killed Callid (doesn't matter which way it is, since everything concerning callid will fail)
4. Beastly killed Akonyl
5. Holmes killed Akonyl

GM reply:
1. true
2. false
3. failed (here the detective got poisoned and went to the hospital)
4. failed (can't do that action anymore)
5. failed (can't do that action anymore)

or

Sakina interrogates Callid -> fails


Sakina as Sherry (Day 2): Follows Callid but it fails.

- Night 3: In both cases, Sakina can't be killed by BO (because they can't find her in the hospital)

Good for BO: Can hinder activities. Can make someone "immune" to abilities. May stop public announcements of activities (like in round 5, where I was told to investigate someone, although I couldn't)
Bad for BO: Needs to poison the right one. A lot of people could be poisoned and get "immune" to killing the following night.


I would put in both, APTX4869 and my poison idea XD
There could still be some flaws in my poison idea, but you get the idea.

Mhh... sounds a bit complicated. I had ideas for Shihos and Akemis parents as well, but they weren't good enough.
This roles sound quite interested but gameplay wise I am afraid they are quite complicated. Especially considering the work and attention the GM would have to pay just for them.
Maybe if a GM feels up to the task. And even then they should be used rarely. There is a lot of tracking involved with them... ("Targeting the target"; "Immunities from killing because the player was poisoned the night before" (We are talking about 48 hours real time between the turns). "Which investigations works, which fail." etc.)

[Kleene Onigiri]

Continuing the discussion about the APTX.

I would add/change:
- The target doesn't know he was targeted (when the poisoning failed)

Yeah, that is what I intended. Did I say different?

Possible I didn't saw it in your post. Or I wanted to point it out but added it into the wrong section. (was late so I was sleepy XD)

- The "fixed number" isn't fixed, but depends on how many townspeople there are (Maybe the variable: x*1/3)

1/3 sounds too much.
And maybe we can make a combination of both variants? For example 2 random BO members have APTX with them. And there are 3 more in the BO pool. If one of the 2 BO with APTX is killed/arrested the capsule they have with them will be lost for the BO. But the 3 in the BO base are save and can be used by anyone.

Huh? 1/3 * townspeople is almost like your "giving every BO member a APTX".
Difference is, that the more townspeople there are, the less BO you have, but they get a bit more APTX than with your rule (because they have less manpower). And if there are more BOs you have automatically less Townspeople, so the BO get's a bit more of the APTX than with your rule.
E.g.: There are 16 people playing.
a) 12 Town, 4 BO.
Your rule: they get 4 APTX
My rule: 12 * 1/3 = 4 APTX
b) 11 Town, 5 BO
Your rule: 5 APTX
My rule: 11 * 1/3 = 3,66 = 4 APTX

Bigger game: 21
a) 16 Town, 5 BO
Your rule: 5 APTX
My rule: 5,33 = 5 APTX
b) 15 Town, 6 BO
Your rule: 6 APTX
My rule: 5 APTX

Well, we could take either rule as a "basic" and the GM can add APTX to the pool when there are no powerful BO ingame (no Gin, Vermouth and Anokata etc.)

- There is a fixed number of APTX4869 for the whole BO (so if a BO dies, they won't lose the APTX4869)

Actually that was intended. I wanted to prevent the BO keeping their APTX too long. If they are at the risk of losing it they might be using it earlier - even if they can't be sure it will work at that time.

- Not a specific BO member uses the poison, but the "whole BO" gives the APTX4869 (so Anokata or the current BO leader gives the order who to poison. If the leader dies, a new leader will give the order)

I liked the chance of being sneaky and make it possible for a BO to kill his partner(s) to achieve a lovers victory. 
Usually the BO will work together anyway, so it makes no difference if a specific member uses the APTX or if all of them do.
And if every BO can use it individually it means they can kill more than one person in a single turn. (But only if there are enough BO left. If only 2 are still alive of course they could only poison 2 at a time).

Pros and cons of your rule "every BO member has a APTX and can lose it during death"
Pros: BO can use more than 1 APTX per day
Cons: BO could shoot all their APTX out (or loose most of it becasue of death) and the Town could go back to the strategy: "we will reveal our roles in public, since the BO most likely lost all their APTX"

Pros and cons of my rule "there is a Pool of APTX and it can't be lost because of the death of a BO member"
Pros: Even if there are just 2 BOs left, they could still have 4 APTX left.
Cons: They can just use 1 APTX a day. So with 5 APTX, they can play till day 5, but the BO most likely won't use the APTX on the 1 Day anyway. But to get to Day 5 or 6 is hard anyway.

I think a mixture of both would be good, so that they can shoot out multiple ATPX a day but don't loose it with their death.

- Should be a Day activity. So if they target the right one, the vote of that person doesn't count anymore (because he died during the day)

I think I agree on the day activity. Prevents the trickster to interfere with it. But I would suggest that person will take part in the lynching normally. Just... directly after the lynching (in the GM post announcing the voting results) the death of the poisoned players is announced.

Good point about the trickster Well, the lynching was an idea. Maybe someone else has a good idea to that?

Btw, since with that APTX added it would be important for the BO to find out roles, we could give the BO some more investigation abilities.

About the other poison idea:

I also had an idea for poison. But not as a "whole BO ability" but an ability for Elena Miyano and/or Atsushi Miyano (because they are scientists)

- BO poisons someones possession
- All activities concerning him will give no result because that person was poisoned while doing so
- The BO needs to poison the possession during night. The poison holds for 1 day and 1 night.
- works on all abilities
- BO doesn't know who was poisoned
- Poisoned person can't be killed the following night, so they don't know why the killing failed (was healed or protected or poisoned)

e.g.:
- Night 2: Callids rubber duck is poisoned XD
- Sakina is Conan (Night 3): Sakina investigates
1. Xcommando disguised as Vermouth
2. Akonyl killed xpon
3. Callid killed Akonyl / Akonyl killed Callid (doesn't matter which way it is, since everything concerning callid will fail)
4. Beastly killed Akonyl
5. Holmes killed Akonyl

GM reply:
1. true
2. false
3. failed (here the detective got poisoned and went to the hospital)
4. failed (can't do that action anymore)
5. failed (can't do that action anymore)

or

Sakina interrogates Callid -> fails


Sakina as Sherry (Day 2): Follows Callid but it fails.

- Night 3: In both cases, Sakina can't be killed by BO (because they can't find her in the hospital)

Good for BO: Can hinder activities. Can make someone "immune" to abilities. May stop public announcements of activities (like in round 5, where I was told to investigate someone, although I couldn't)
Bad for BO: Needs to poison the right one. A lot of people could be poisoned and get "immune" to killing the following night.


I would put in both, APTX4869 and my poison idea XD
There could still be some flaws in my poison idea, but you get the idea.

Mhh... sounds a bit complicated. I had ideas for Shihos and Akemis parents as well, but they weren't good enough.
This roles sound quite interested but gameplay wise I am afraid they are quite complicated. Especially considering the work and attention the GM would have to pay just for them.
Maybe if a GM feels up to the task. And even then they should be used rarely. There is a lot of tracking involved with them... ("Targeting the target"; "Immunities from killing because the player was poisoned the night before" (We are talking about 48 hours real time between the turns). "Which investigations works, which fail." etc.)

Dunno if that would be a lot of work for a GM?
We could ditch that "immunity to death" thingy to make it easier, but it could make that ability "overpowered" maybe. But if that's a night ability anyway, it can be tricked and investigated anyway.

[Schillok]

Huh? 1/3 * townspeople is almost like your "giving every BO member a APTX".
Difference is, that the more townspeople there are, the less BO you have, but they get a bit more APTX than with your rule (because they have less manpower). And if there are more BOs you have automatically less Townspeople, so the BO get's a bit more of the APTX than with your rule.

Well, we could take either rule as a "basic" and the GM can add APTX to the pool when there are no powerful BO ingame (no Gin, Vermouth and Anokata etc.)

Ahh, that was a mistake from my side. I thought we were talking about 1/3 of the total players. 7 APTX in a game with 20 players sounded too much for me. But I guess with 1/3 of the town-sided ones it is closer to what I had in mind.

Pros and cons of your rule "every BO member has a APTX and can lose it during death"
Pros: BO can use more than 1 APTX per day
Cons: BO could shoot all their APTX out (or loose most of it becasue of death) and the Town could go back to the strategy: "we will reveal our roles in public, since the BO most likely lost all their APTX"

Well, the town won't know how much APTX the BO used and failed. Only the number of successful poisonings. And if the BO didn't win even after 5 successful poisoning the game was either very imbalanced or the town played a great game as well.
I don't want to prevent role-claiming completely. Just delay it enough to prevent the formation of huge alliances before the third day, or - if they form anyway - give the BO a chance to deal with it by infiltrating the alliance (without having to waste several nights to kill them all).

Pros and cons of my rule "there is a Pool of APTX and it can't be lost because of the death of a BO member"
Pros: Even if there are just 2 BOs left, they could still have 4 APTX left.
Cons: They can just use 1 APTX a day. So with 5 APTX, they can play till day 5, but the BO most likely won't use the APTX on the 1 Day anyway. But to get to Day 5 or 6 is hard anyway.
I think a mixture of both would be good, so that they can shoot out multiple ATPX a day but don't loose it with their death.

Maybe have a pool of capsules in the beginning. And allowing each BO member to take one of them during the night. They can only use a capsule when they actually hold one (already during the following day if they wish). If they hold a capsule and are killed the APTX is lost.
I think it is necessary to allow the BO to use more than one APTX per day. Having the number of remaining BO as the maximum sounds fair to me.

Btw, since with that APTX added it would be important for the BO to find out roles, we could give the BO some more investigation abilities.

I don't think so. It should remain an answer to deal with role claiming, make infiltrations more rewarding and allow to slow down the formation of alliances (without increasing the number of BO per game).

[...]
BO scientists
[...]

Dunno if that would be a lot of work for a GM?
We could ditch that "immunity to death" thingy to make it easier, but it could make that ability "overpowered" maybe. But if that's a night ability anyway, it can be tricked and investigated anyway.

I think having Vodka (and/or Tequila) interfere with the town actions would be more effective, cleaner and simpler.
Maybe some other people have ideas/input in the BO scientists?

[xpon]

how about giving a special rules.

APTX 4869 can only given after night 3 ( or at day 3)

so the BO wont get an upper hand because killing 2 townies a day.  but after the third night ( asuming 3 townie killed) then it can be used.


and the number maybe half the BO member..

ex.

6 bo = 3 aptx
5 bo = 3 aptx
4 bo = 2 aptx

[Beastly]

* Anokata, Mafia boss

   * Cannot be detected by any detective or interrogation, but can be cornered by the Trickster. He has no scent. His identity gets known after death.
   * Has the right to make the final decision who of the Mafia kills which townsfolk - although he will hopefully listen to his subordinates (and the rules).
   * He will choose a specific action at night, which if investigated will show as true. For example Xpon interrogated Beastly it will showed up as a true though it's not )

That would be his main strength, because having no scent is really ugly. With that he can blend with the guys he'll say the GM what is his given actions. With APTX that would make Anokata powerful.

APTX is too good unless

It will be 2 Apotoxins for Gin and Anokata:

Though if Apotoxin doesnt work at first, they will have another chance to use it. But if it works, that is the last apotoxin of the specific member.

[xpon]

* Anokata, Mafia boss

    * Cannot be detected by any detective or interrogation, but can be cornered by the Trickster. He has no scent. His identity gets known after death.
    * Has the right to make the final decision who of the Mafia kills which townsfolk - although he will hopefully listen to his subordinates (and the rules).
  * He will choose a specific action at night, which if investigated will show as true. For example Xpon interrogated Beastly it will showed up as a true though it's not )

That would be his main strength, because having no scent is really ugly. With that he can blend with the guys he'll say the GM what is his given actions. With APTX that would make Anokata powerful.

APTX is too good unless

It will be 2 Apotoxins for Gin and Anokata:

Though if Apotoxin doesnt work at first, they will have another chance to use it. But if it works, that is the last apotoxin of the specific member.

Beastly.. did you read my post about time limitation of using APTX4869?? after Night 3 so at day 3

[Schillok]

I don't think forcing the BO to wait to use their APTX until night 3 would be a good idea. I intended it as a method to prevent early role-claiming, using it during the first 2 days should not be restricted. It is no certain-kill, it requires the BO to know the exact identity of a player. And this identity is hard to find out of the player does not freely tell who they are. Even if the BO know that one player is a Meitantei, they would need some time to confirm if he/she is Shinichi, Conan or Heiji. Or Kaito Kid.
I think it is necessary to give the BO the chance to kill more than one player per day. It really puts the town players at risk, so they have to be more careful with their identities. Which would help the BO to blend in much better, too.

I don't think Anokata needs another ability. Being undetectable by interrogation and scent is pretty much already.

[xpon]

I don't think forcing the BO to wait to use their APTX until night 3 would be a good idea. I intended it as a method to prevent early role-claiming, using it during the first 2 days should not be restricted. It is no certain-kill, it requires the BO to know the exact identity of a player. And this identity is hard to find out of the player does not freely tell who they are. Even if the BO know that one player is a Meitantei, they would need some time to confirm if he/she is Shinichi, Conan or Heiji. Or Kaito Kid.
I think it is necessary to give the BO the chance to kill more than one player per day. It really puts the town players at risk, so they have to be more careful with their identities. Which would help the BO to blend in much better, too.

I don't think Anokata needs another ability. Being undetectable by interrogation and scent is pretty much already.

okay schilock. i just tell based on my experience.

if irish is there then we can get 2 kil at first night. and we can erased it and claimed to be that role so .. that is why i want to ask for a time limitation

[Kleene Onigiri]

You don't need a time limit. Because APTX just works if you get the right target. And if you used it on someone and he isn#t the role you said he is, then you lose the APTX.
Meaning, the BO will most likely not use the APTX in the 1. night/day and just maybe use it in the 2.night/day because they need info on the townspeople to use it successfully. So they will use it mostly 3. night/day and onward.

with "2 APTX for Gin and Anokata" it's possible that the BO doesn't get any APTX at all or just 1 APTX, because it's not given that Gin and/or Anokata are ingame.

He will choose a specific action at night, which if investigated will show as true. For example Xpon interrogated Beastly it will showed up as a true though it's not )

Wouldn't that make anokata even stronger?

Instead I thought, that Anokata would be given info on Roles:
He get's PMed by the GM with 6 roles. (maybe more or less roles) 1/2 are in the game and the other 1/2 are not in the game. This way Anokata can try to pretend to be one of them (and the other BOs too). Also Bourbon get's a hint on what roles to check (besides the obvious targets)

[Schillok]

if irish is there then we can get 2 kil at first night. and we can erased it and claimed to be that role so .. that is why i want to ask for a time limitation

Well, yeah that is one real problem. I didn't remember Irish was changed in such a way... (The last state was that he learned the role of one town-player at the start of the round).
We would have to change Irishs ability again.

I still like my old proposal: During Night 1 Irish abducts one character not in the game and thus learns a free role right away. Yeah, it is quite weak, but without APTX knowing the identity of one player doesn't sound too exciting either. On the other hand being a Mafia Sniper is probably not so special either. Some roles are bound to be a bit weaker than others.
 

[Kleene Onigiri]

if irish is there then we can get 2 kil at first night. and we can erased it and claimed to be that role so .. that is why i want to ask for a time limitation

Well, yeah that is one real problem. I didn't remember Irish was changed in such a way... (The last state was that he learned the role of one town-player at the start of the round).
We would have to change Irishs ability again.

I still like my old proposal: During Night 1 Irish abducts one character not in the game and thus learns a free role right away. Yeah, it is quite weak, but without APTX knowing the identity of one player doesn't sound too exciting either. On the other hand being a Mafia Sniper is probably not so special either. Some roles are bound to be a bit weaker than others.
 

Oh, I also forgot about Irish ability change.
Well, instead of getting the role+name, he could just get the role (like "police" "detective" "FBI" "DB" "protector" and for special roles like agasa, araide and Sherry (and the others that don't fit to the other categories) "special role") They won't get the name and can kill them immediately with the APTX. But the BO still get's a valuable hint.
Or Irish get's to know 6 roles and 1/2 is in the game and 1/2 is not. (see my anokata example)

[xpon]

no..

even when we know 1 certain role we couldnt make use for it.. and not every game irish is around.

that's why i insist on putting time limit. for APTX

[xpon]

Another question

1. if kogoro is present and no other family is in the game ( RAN / SHINICHI / CONAN / ERI) will he stil be a drunkyard detective?

2. can we have a full list of gm message? like what to say if someone have a scent or anything. ( like having a guide list)

3. can we make the lover is only between townies because if someone chose a BO-Townie pairing, then it is possible the BO could lose 1 member in silly way.

4. if sonoko have best friend and they both will know each other role and sonoko can pretend to be like her Best frieds. then her ability is useless... if sonoko died then her bestfriend dont get the attackers id right? so why would sonoko announce her as her best friedns? isn't it better if her friend died then she can learns the attackers id.
Because if i'm sonoko. then i'll post my friends role at night 1 . ( 1 on 1 trade is better for townie at the beginning and will harm BO more) day 2 i'll post conia as my best friend and said he is sato. then the bo probbably will kill her on night 3 and on day 3 we will get 100% BO for lynch right?

[Kleene Onigiri]

Another question

1. if kogoro is present and no other family is in the game ( RAN / SHINICHI / CONAN / ERI) will he stil be a drunkyard detective?

Guess he'll stay a drunkard. That's why there has to be one of these roles (usually, if the GM isn't the devil :x)

2. can we have a full list of gm message? like what to say if someone have a scent or anything. ( like having a guide list)

I wanted to make such a list/guide/clearer rules. At least making it basic, so the current GM just has to edit some stuff if he/she wants it to be different.

3. can we make the lover is only between townies because if someone chose a BO-Townie pairing, then it is possible the BO could lose 1 member in silly way.

That's the point. If there is a BO/town love, then the BO has to protect the townie from his BO buddies. And the townie needs to protect his lover from the other townies. So they need to avoid being suspicious and fending off suspicion on their lovers.

4. if sonoko have best friend and they both will know each other role and sonoko can pretend to be like her Best frieds. then her ability is useless... if sonoko died then her bestfriend dont get the attackers id right? so why would sonoko announce her as her best friedns? isn't it better if her friend died then she can learns the attackers id.
Because if i'm sonoko. then i'll post my friends role at night 1 . ( 1 on 1 trade is better for townie at the beginning and will harm BO more) day 2 i'll post conia as my best friend and said he is sato. then the bo probbably will kill her on night 3 and on day 3 we will get 100% BO for lynch right?

You can't have both knowing the identities of the attacker. Just Sonoko may know the attacker. Otherwise you can't kill that pairing without the BO revealing a member.
If you reveal your friends role when you're sonoko, then the BO will know that something is fishy and will think you're sonoko. If your friend reveals his role without a good point, then the BO will think it's a trap too. (round 5: Callid wanted to be killed by the BO. That's why I didn't want to kill him ;p Another reason why I didn't want to kill Callid was because The BLind was a BO too )

[xpon]

i mean, what if sonoko have her abilities reverse.

so it will be like this 

* Sonoko, best friend

    * May choose someone to be her best friend in the preparation phase. She learns everything he knows, and may pretend to be him in public so that he's saved. If sonoko is killed, the best friend learns the attacker's identity. They both are aware of each others identity.
    * To choose someone, she gives a number of suggestions to the GM (Number varies within the game, so the GM has to specify the number to the player that got Sonoko when the GM PMs the role).  The GM randomly chooses someone out of these for her to befriend.  She may not befriend lovers, DBs or any BO member except for Vermouth.  In this case she will befriend Vermouth's disguise and not learn her true identity.



-------

it's too cruel if they both understand. but if it was reverse like this. then sonoko is like a protector for 1 person only. just like that. and remember no thing on this game can prove if you are sonoko's best friend.

ex. nomemory as sonoko is friend with pofa then nomemorie get killed by xpon. so even if pofa scream and yell in the tread that i killed nomemories, there is no 100% guarantee that pofa telling the truth.. some one else can claim that too. ( just like Bluekaito claim that he is friend with blufberg. but actually nomemory knows and pofa knows too, but only both of them)

because in current roles. sonoko will bring good if she stay hidden, but that can be used by Bo to accuse others..