DCTP Forums

Adel34 wrote:Yes. There are a few reasons for this, but the worst one for me is that Aoyama introduces more and more detective-like characters to the series. It was great with just Conan. Then Heiji appeared, that was okay too. But now we have: Conan, Heiji, the WHOLE Akai family (Shuichi, Masumi, Shukichi, Mary), Bourbon and the recently introduced Muga. Conan is not special anymore, even if he is still the main focus of the series. It feels like he has to join forces with someone in order to solve a case. He was perfectly fine by himself back in the day. In fact, I kind of appreciate today's AOs for the sole reason of not including all those characters.

So the Bourbon arc was, for you, when DC started to go downhill? And are we talking a major decline in quality?

How have I never posted in this thread?

Well regardless, I feel like an interesting thing about this is that despite the entire Vermouth arc being my favorite story arc in ALL of anime, there was almost certainly a decline in case quality around that point too. You could very easily make the case that the series peaked before then, depending on your tastes (especially since the plot started before then). I don't but you COULD. Like the vast majority of the best cases in the series happened before Jodie was introduced, I feel confident in saying that.

But to me the interesting thing is that the series peaked at the end of that series, and literally only got back to that peak during the beginning and ending of the Kir arcs (the ending being a 14 episode marathon but still...), outside of one-off cases and maybe(?) the first 1/2 to full year of the Bourbon arc. But the more obvious decline happened during the Bourbon arc. The quality of the series, imo, has stayed basically the same since Sera's introduction. Before that I'd say, depending on my mood, the first half of the Bourbon arc is either of the same quality as the middle of the Kir arc (just with bigger highs and lows) or a bit worse because lolpacing. I lean towards a bit worse if we're specifically talking about the anime.

(and just to make this clear, when I'm talking about arcs, I am talking about the entire quality of everything happening around those arcs during that time as well, including cases and romantic subplots)

tl;dr: Cellphone arc = minor decline, Bourbon first half = moderate decline(?), no decline since Sera and Amuro arrived



Also, to this day, I do feel like the decline in quality is sometimes very exaggerated. "Series that never stopped airing that's nearing episode 900 has had issues after 20+ years", no **** sherlock. In what reality would that not have happened? For nearly any series ever made?

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
So the Bourbon arc was, for you, when DC started to go downhill? And are we talking a major decline in quality?

Yes, somewhere around that. But, it's gotten even worse when Masumi appeared. Was it the haunted hotel case that she appeared? It all went downhill from there. I wish Aoyama would retire some of these characters in the future, like he did with Eisuke (although he was not a detective).

The Bourbon arc, I'd say moderate. When Masumi appeared - major.

kkslider5552000 wrote:I feel like an interesting thing about this is that despite the entire Vermouth arc being my favorite story arc in ALL of anime, there was almost certainly a decline in case quality around that point too. You could very easily make the case that the series peaked before then, depending on your tastes (especially since the plot started before then). I don't but you COULD. Like the vast majority of the best cases in the series happened before Jodie was introduced, I feel confident in saying that.

Ah, so the story arc was the best, but not so much for the cases? How would you rank each of DC's story arcs, and how would you (by arc) rank the case quality? By the way, what makes the Vermouth arc's story transcendent for you?

Yeah, I can definitely see a case being made for, "DC peaked from 97–99..." (Shiho's/Ai's and Vermouth's intro (considered some of the best characters by proponents of this case) + Reunion with the BO (considered best BO story by proponents of this case) + Desperate Revival (considered best romance/ShinichixRan moment by proponents of this case)), "...and it just declined from there."

If not that, then, "DC peaked from 97–03 and it just declined from there," (Sherry/Haibara arc–Vermouth arc) or, "DC peaked from 97–07 and it just declined from there" (Sherry/Haibara arc–Kir arc). With the 97–03 and 97–07 cases, I wouldn't go out of my way to contest the assertion that quality declined after those points—rather, I'd contest the assertion that a major decline in quality took place.

kkslider5552000 wrote:But to me the interesting thing is that the series peaked at the end of that series, and literally only got back to that peak during the beginning and ending of the Kir arcs (the ending being a 14 episode marathon but still...), outside of one-off cases and maybe(?) the first 1/2 to full year of the Bourbon arc. But the more obvious decline happened during the Bourbon arc. The quality of the series, imo, has stayed basically the same since Sera's introduction. Before that I'd say, depending on my mood, the first half of the Bourbon arc is either of the same quality as the middle of the Kir arc (just with bigger highs and lows) or a bit worse because lolpacing. I lean towards a bit worse if we're specifically talking about the anime.

(and just to make this clear, when I'm talking about arcs, I am talking about the entire quality of everything happening around those arcs during that time as well, including cases and romantic subplots)

What about the very beginning of the Bourbon arc made it worthy of comparison to the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black, in terms of it "maybe(?)" getting DC back to the peak?

So what has been the level of quality since Masumi's intro, in comparison to the peaks that are the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black? Just how much of a decline are we talking?

kkslider5552000 wrote:tl;dr: Cellphone arc = minor decline, Bourbon first half = moderate decline(?), no decline since Sera and Amuro arrived

How come?

Have you read the last couple manga cases (1,000–1,005 and 1,006–1,008)? If so, after reading them, do you still think the quality of DC is still the same since Masumi and Rei/Toru entered the picture?

kkslider5552000 wrote:Also, to this day, I do feel like the decline in quality is sometimes very exaggerated. "Series that never stopped airing that's nearing episode 900 has had issues after 20+ years", no **** sherlock. In what reality would that not have happened? For nearly any series ever made?

On a (kind of) side note, I'm also interested in what is or what would be the breaking point (as in, what would make someone stop watching DC, full stop... though there is the matter of those who reach a point of swearing off DC for only a matter of months before coming back, rather than swearing off DC altogether), and what makes that breaking point so utterly beyond the pale, by what they consider to be the standards of DC.

Well this is a lot questions

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: Ah, so the story arc was the best, but not so much for the cases? How would you rank each of DC's story arcs, and how would you (by arc) rank the case quality?

Story arc quality: Vermouth > Haibara/Haido City Hotel/Desperate Revival (admittedly bias for being the first real focus on story development of any sort) > Kir >= Bourbon > CELL PHONE. I'm not sure I have a solid opinion on Rum arc so far.

Case quality: First 200 episodes/the manga equivalent of that > Vermouth and Cell Phone arc > Bourbon arc pre Sera > Kir arc > Bourbon arc around when Sera and Amuro debuted. More or less. I think the most obvious problems is with the first and last one, where we've really gone from "most of the cases are great and has most of the best of the series" to "We get two actually great cases a year, 1/3 of them are meh to ok". Also I feel like the Vermouth arc was so great and the characters at that time so great that it's not even worth noticing that as a stand alone murder mystery it often wasn't quiiiite as compelling. Whereas now, I still love much of the story elements, but that's despite some clear problems and it's now IMPOSSIBLE to ignore that cases are often not as fun as they used to be. I don't pretend to be an expert on murder mysteries ever, but I know I'm not alone on that.

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:By the way, what makes the Vermouth arc's story transcendent for you?

I mean, it's the best story arc from my favorite series. I'm basically making an obvious statement by saying that. :p

But beyond that, I guess it's mostly that Gosho's patience with giving the audience actual plot really worked out, as you spend years with episodic murder mysteries to hardcore establish the status quo and characters and then some elements with plot starting to happen with Haibara and eventually it doesn't take long after Jodie's introduction to see a legit big storyline is going on through these cases as it builds to one of the most awesome, suspenseful and well built climaxes of any story I've ever seen (with the bonus of it still being a mystery like a...mystery series should be). Especially since because we didn't follow it from...1994 through 2003 like Japanese manga readers did, it was quicker paced for us. :p

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: What about the very beginning of the Bourbon arc made it worthy of comparison to the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black, in terms of it "maybe(?)" getting DC back to the peak?

So what has been the level of quality since Masumi's intro, in comparison to the peaks that are the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black? Just how much of a decline are we talking?

Well it's kinda sad how the Bourbon arc started in the anime especially. I was just getting caught up with the series, and if you did in 2008 like I did, you would have a very interesting assumption of Detective Conan by that point. Because wow...man the series is really going all in with plot development I guess. In one year, we get this giant 14 episode arc, and it's basically immediately followed by an Eisuke case where he goes away AND KNOWS CONAN'S TRUE IDENTITY. And then immediately there's a 3 part case (two cases in 3 episodes, whatever) establishing Okiya and Bourbon is now a thing. And even after that was a Kid case where Jirokichi was questioning Kid's real motives and Furinkazan, which is an amazing case that introduced some cool new characters. ONE YEAR. And they never did it again, and problems with both the anime and the series started to become a little more obvious literally the next year. And it took an eternity to finish the Bourbon arc.

Does anyone remember when I thought Detective Conan would end in 2017? HAHAHAHAHA, hilarious.

Anyway, sometime around Sera and Amuro's intro, the quality has not remotely changed since (at least as far as Gosho's work goes). It's still a very good series but only occasionally does Gosho really tap into the quality I want from the series based on how it's been before.

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: On a (kind of) side note, I'm also interested in what is or what would be the breaking point (as in, what would make someone stop watching DC, full stop... though there is the matter of those who reach a point of swearing off DC for only a matter of months before coming back, rather than swearing off DC altogether), and what makes that breaking point so utterly beyond the pale, by what they consider to be the standards of DC.

I do think most people quit the series because the plot is way too slow for them. Which is entirely understandable.

I would never stop watching unless I didn't like watching it at all, personally. But I can see disappointment compared to how great (what is now actually) the first half of the series was being enough for people to just not care anymore, combined with how absurdly long the Bourbon arc was. I feel for some people, being disappointing is almost worst than actually being bad.

kkslider5552000 wrote:Well this is a lot questions

Not the first time—won't be the last.

kkslider5552000 wrote:

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: Ah, so the story arc was the best, but not so much for the cases? How would you rank each of DC's story arcs, and how would you (by arc) rank the case quality?

Story arc quality: Vermouth > Haibara/Haido City Hotel/Desperate Revival (admittedly bias for being the first real focus on story development of any sort) > Kir >= Bourbon > CELL PHONE. I'm not sure I have a solid opinion on Rum arc so far.

So the boss thing during that arc didn't do it for you?

Just to clarify—how far are you in the Rum arc?

kkslider5552000 wrote:

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:By the way, what makes the Vermouth arc's story transcendent for you?

I mean, it's the best story arc from my favorite series. I'm basically making an obvious statement by saying that. :p

But beyond that, I guess it's mostly that Gosho's patience with giving the audience actual plot really worked out, as you spend years with episodic murder mysteries to hardcore establish the status quo and characters and then some elements with plot starting to happen with Haibara and eventually it doesn't take long after Jodie's introduction to see a legit big storyline is going on through these cases as it builds to one of the most awesome, suspenseful and well built climaxes of any story I've ever seen (with the bonus of it still being a mystery like a...mystery series should be). Especially since because we didn't follow it from...1994 through 2003 like Japanese manga readers did, it was quicker paced for us. :p

Has post-Vermouth arc DC been the establishment of a new status quo (e.g., spies, etc.) before Gosho launches into the next truly "legit big storyline?" (except with a buildup nearly 3 times as long as the original buildup (94–99 vs 03–present)) If so, then I suppose a BO Boss arc, with Team Shinichi/Conan working with FBI, CIA and the Japanese Security Bureaus (and maybe more intelligence agencies) to finally take down the BO, would be the next truly "legit big storyline," right?

kkslider5552000 wrote:

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: What about the very beginning of the Bourbon arc made it worthy of comparison to the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black, in terms of it "maybe(?)" getting DC back to the peak?

So what has been the level of quality since Masumi's intro, in comparison to the peaks that are the Vermouth arc climax, Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black? Just how much of a decline are we talking?

Well it's kinda sad how the Bourbon arc started in the anime especially. I was just getting caught up with the series, and if you did in 2008 like I did, you would have a very interesting assumption of Detective Conan by that point. Because wow...man the series is really going all in with plot development I guess. In one year, we get this giant 14 episode arc, and it's basically immediately followed by an Eisuke case where he goes away AND KNOWS CONAN'S TRUE IDENTITY. And then immediately there's a 3 part case (two cases in 3 episodes, whatever) establishing Okiya and Bourbon is now a thing. And even after that was a Kid case where Jirokichi was questioning Kid's real motives and Furinkazan, which is an amazing case that introduced some cool new characters. ONE YEAR. And they never did it again, and problems with both the anime and the series started to become a little more obvious literally the next year. And it took an eternity to finish the Bourbon arc.

Does anyone remember when I thought Detective Conan would end in 2017? HAHAHAHAHA, hilarious.

Anyway, sometime around Sera and Amuro's intro, the quality has not remotely changed since (at least as far as Gosho's work goes). It's still a very good series but only occasionally does Gosho really tap into the quality I want from the series based on how it's been before.

Ah, that's what you meant.

And these moments of once again meeting potential are?

kkslider5552000 wrote:

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: On a (kind of) side note, I'm also interested in what is or what would be the breaking point (as in, what would make someone stop watching DC, full stop... though there is the matter of those who reach a point of swearing off DC for only a matter of months before coming back, rather than swearing off DC altogether), and what makes that breaking point so utterly beyond the pale, by what they consider to be the standards of DC.

I do think most people quit the series because the plot is way too slow for them. Which is entirely understandable.

I would never stop watching unless I didn't like watching it at all, personally. But I can see disappointment compared to how great (what is now actually) the first half of the series was being enough for people to just not care anymore, combined with how absurdly long the Bourbon arc was. I feel for some people, being disappointing is almost worst than actually being bad.

Hmmm, there's a DBZ abridged, a SAO abridged... where's DC abridged?



Or straight-up worse. And, at least in the context of DC, I just don't have that perspective.