Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Versus polls and this-or-that contests should find themselves in here.

If Detective Conan began to decline in quality, in which arc did it do so, and to what degree?

Not at all
3
21%
Conan Arc (Manga: 1–175, Anime: 1–128) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Conan Arc (Manga: 1–175, Anime: 1–128) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Conan Arc (Manga: 1–175, Anime: 1–128) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
Haibara Arc (Manga: 176–237, Anime: 129–175) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Haibara Arc (Manga: 176–237, Anime: 129–175) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Haibara Arc (Manga: 176–237, Anime: 129–175) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
Vermouth Arc (Manga: 238–434, Anime: 176–345) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Vermouth Arc (Manga: 238–434, Anime: 176–345) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Vermouth Arc (Manga: 238–434, Anime: 176–345) (Major decline in quality)
1
7%
Cell Phone Arc (Manga: 435–498, Anime: 346–424) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Cell Phone Arc (Manga: 435–498, Anime: 346–424) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Cell Phone Arc (Manga: 435–498, Anime: 346–424) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
Kir Arc (Manga: 499–621, Anime: 425–508) (Minor decline in quality)
2
14%
Kir Arc (Manga: 499–621, Anime: 425–508) (Medium decline in quality)
3
21%
Kir Arc (Manga: 499–621, Anime: 425–508) (Major decline in quality)
2
14%
Bourbon Arc – Pre-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 622–824, Anime: 509–704) (Minor decline in quality)
2
14%
Bourbon Arc – Pre-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 622–824, Anime: 509–704) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Bourbon Arc – Pre-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 622–824, Anime: 509–704) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
Bourbon Arc – Post-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 825–898, Anime: 704–783) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Bourbon Arc – Post-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 825–898, Anime: 704–783) (Medium decline in quality)
1
7%
Bourbon Arc – Post-Mystery Train Half (Manga: 825–898, Anime: 704–783) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
Rum Arc (Manga: 899–, Anime: 784–) (Minor decline in quality)
0
No votes
Rum Arc (Manga: 899–, Anime: 784–) (Medium decline in quality)
0
No votes
Rum Arc (Manga: 899–, Anime: 784–) (Major decline in quality)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 14
k11chi
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Posts: 1335

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby k11chi » January 2nd, 2017, 10:16 am

But as far as the amount of content goes it's Aoyama on his A-game since maybe furinkazan (some chapters in the shorter cases may have had alot going on though but in general as it was a longer case anyway). Mystery Train had SO much going on. Dozen characters doing different things at the same time, and on the surface you had to consider the build-up from the previous case and on the background where everyone was planning their things you had to consider their meanings from other cases.
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Antiyonder
Posts: 96

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » January 2nd, 2017, 7:30 pm

Honestly I can appreciate if there are fans who appreciate the series as a whole as it currently is, but I don't think there's any shame in being critical, nor do I think one should be shamed for having some criticism.

Criticism doesn't equal hate, and liking/loving something or even someone sometimes means being able to point out the flaws of the subject of their affection.

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:One of DC's current problems is Gosho's current knack for status quo maintenance, right? How things will be stretched to ensure there's no major shake-ups... and for such a long period of time.


Well I think it's a fair gripe for several reasons:
1. For one thing with decent writing, a rarely changing series can still work and still have a good share of creativity. Everything from the first chapter to the Vermouth arc arguably succeeds for the most part in this regard.

Case in point, The Desperate Revival and the Shingami arc both end with the status quo in place. But DR is written and structured in a way that you feel anything can happen, while the latter is pretty much beating you over the head and reminding you "Status quo is God and reigns supreme".

2. Some changes can and would mean the end of the series and I can grant concession for keeping those elements from changing despite some reservations*. But not all changes to the status quo would inhibit the ability to continue the series for the foreseeable future.

If the only reason to refrain from change is simply for the fear of doing something different, then yeah I think criticism of the status quo is fair. Especially as Gosho wants to pad out the series to keep it from ending. Some changes not only don't inhibit the ability to keep the series going, but ironically provide more creative fodder for padding.


*Biggest example that comes to mind is Haibara keeping info from the cast that would allow them to possibly find and defeat the organization. Such a change would mean ending the series, so I can understand keeping the status quo.

But even then? Considering how long the series has continued past her introduction and all of the BO events occurring, I feel like something really big would have to happen to justify Haibara finally deciding to divulge game changing information.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
PhantomWriter
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Posts: 250

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby PhantomWriter » January 2nd, 2017, 10:28 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:*Looks at avatar*

Ah, so that's how much she's saving DC for you, huh? 8-)

Off Topic
If I recall correctly, didn't Rei/Toru used to be your avatar? If so, then I guess him turning out to be an undercover agent messed up his character for you.



Nah, just felt like a change in avatar. :P

Rei's actions do add up that he was an undercover agent. Though I would like to see more actual agents of the Organization. ;)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." -Sherlock Holmes
DCUniverseAficionado
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Life can be so many things... what it is for me and for you is up to us to decide.

Posts: 1195

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » January 2nd, 2017, 11:42 pm

Antiyonder wrote:Honestly I can appreciate if there are fans who appreciate the series as a whole as it currently is, but I don't think there's any shame in being critical, nor do I think one should be shamed for having some criticism.

Criticism doesn't equal hate, and liking/loving something or even someone sometimes means being able to point out the flaws of the subject of their affection.


This is something I had to realize, and I am all the better for it. :)

Antiyonder wrote:Gosho wants to pad out the series to keep it from ending.


Some may not agree, but at least part of Gosho's reasoning must be that he thinks that the board is not set—that all the pieces aren't in place. After all, if the end had come just after the Vermouth arc, we wouldn't have all the characters that have become part of the series, since then, in that climax.

Antiyonder wrote:For one thing with decent writing, a rarely changing series can still work and still have a good share of creativity. Everything from the first chapter to the Vermouth arc arguably succeeds for the most part in this regard.


So everything since the Cell Phone arc hasn't? Or just hasn't been as good? How come?

Theoretically, someone must be a good or even great enough writer to maintain the status quo and yet keep people hooked and not want to just walk away after nearly 1000 Files. So I suppose Gosho's limit, for you, was nearly 450 Files.

PhantomWriter wrote:I would like to see more actual agents of the Organization. ;)


So would I. ;)

Off Topic
Does Rum count, though?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Antiyonder
Posts: 96

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » January 3rd, 2017, 12:54 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:So everything since the Cell Phone arc hasn't? Or just hasn't been as good? How come?


I honestly don't have the words right now. Though I will say I've modified my opinion if truth be told. I'd say that Clash of Red and Black was pretty good, with maybe the start of the Bourbon arc beginning the decline.

Theoretically, someone must be a good or even great enough writer to maintain the status quo and yet keep people hooked and not want to just walk away after nearly 1000 Files. So I suppose Gosho's limit, for you, was nearly 450 Files.


Well to be fair, popularity doesn't always equal quality. Though in the case of DC, I'd argue that maybe some people are more interested in the episodic mysteries over the story arc so for them, arc fatigue might be a minor detail. So maybe like myself, those with a more critical mindset came for the story and characterization.

Overall though I wouldn't say that the high number of files is a problem, but just more that it feels like Gosho's creativity in the story side just lacks the same energy or that he's more or less just making things up as a means of padding.

Take Haibara for instance. Her first full appearance was quite a bit later compared to the likes of Ran, Kogoro, Megure, Agasa, but if you read the manga version of Akemi's introduction and death, Ai was clearly planned as far back as Volume 2, whereas some have suggested that a lot of characters like Akai's family were made up and brought in mainly for padding.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
EpocConan
User avatar
Posts: 4

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby EpocConan » January 3rd, 2017, 3:35 pm

I love DC, but I think it peaked at the Vermouth arc. The whole Eisuke/Kir arc is somewhat useless to draw out that long. If Conan just took the gum with the bug off Kir's shoe she didn't need to get knocked into a coma since Conan probably could deduce she was undercover.

Even Akai faking his death and Bourbon coming in seemed kind of unnecessary. If after chapter 435 when Vermouth agreed to stop going after Haibara, Conan was able to identify Kir or Bourbon as spies in the BO, they could tell him Rum is on the move or something and we could be progressed in the plot nearly as far by chapter 600 as we are at by 1000 assuming they still needed 50-100 chapters to develop Sera and Mary.
Antiyonder
Posts: 96

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » January 3rd, 2017, 7:29 pm

If any thing I feel the criticism of the series to be even more so valid if only because maybe Gosho made a mistake in adding a serialized elements to begin with. I mean if it's a story he wanted to tell, fine. But if it's out of fear that the audience wouldn't follow a pure mystery series with episodic cases only? I don't know, but Simpsons has lasted up to now with no end insight with just comedic stories and it has 4 year on the manga. And even to this day, there still seem to be many Conan fans who are more invested in the episodic mysteries to the point of not being bother with the storyline being stretched out to decades.

So maybe Conan should have just been a child prodigy with the whole continuity and storyline being jettisoned.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
k11chi
User avatar
Posts: 1335

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby k11chi » January 3rd, 2017, 7:50 pm

Antiyonder wrote:If any thing I feel the criticism of the series to be even more so valid if only because maybe Gosho made a mistake in adding a serialized elements to begin with. I mean if it's a story he wanted to tell, fine. But if it's out of fear that the audience wouldn't follow a pure mystery series with episodic cases only? I don't know, but Simpsons has lasted up to now with no end insight with just comedic stories and it has 4 year on the manga. And even to this day, there still seem to be many Conan fans who are more invested in the episodic mysteries to the point of not being bother with the storyline being stretched out to decades.

So maybe Conan should have just been a child prodigy with the whole continuity and storyline being jettisoned.

That was never the plan... Gosho's plan since the beginning was to have Detective Conan have an overarching main story, and not only that. Many elements reappear and get mentioned later on. In the Nue case Heiji mentioned the Ebisu Bridge and the latest case was a follow-up on that. Everything the characters do even in the most irrelevant cases were build up from something.
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Antiyonder
Posts: 96

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » January 3rd, 2017, 9:36 pm

k11chi wrote:That was never the plan... Gosho's plan since the beginning was to have Detective Conan have an overarching main story, and not only that.


My mistake, though the handling of the plot arguably gives the opposite.

Many elements reappear and get mentioned later on. In the Nue case Heiji mentioned the Ebisu Bridge and the latest case was a follow-up on that. Everything the characters do even in the most irrelevant cases were build up from something.


True. Though I suppose my critique of the plot is that there are arguably ways that the series could gain more creative changes. Changes that wouldn't require bringing about the end of the series, but would arguably provide more organic fodder for padding. And to his credit we've seen some like:

1. The love dynamics between Takagi and Sato growing, as well as Shiratori also backing out and finding love elsewhere.
2. Conan and Ai's friendship with the Detective Boys. Notably how Conan use to regard them as nothing more than a nuisance or camouflage, but nowadays there's a definite respect that he has for them.

Overall there are arguably changes that could be made in the story that allow for the best of both worlds (adding more creativity on the side and yet not compromising the ability to continue the series).
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
DCUniverseAficionado
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Life can be so many things... what it is for me and for you is up to us to decide.

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Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » January 6th, 2017, 3:15 am

Please note—I changed the poll and added the Rum arc.

Had I known this would erase all the votes, I wouldn't have done it.

So if you don't even want to bother voting again, it's fine—it's my screw-up, so I'll own the consequences.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
dilbertschalter
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Posts: 1064

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby dilbertschalter » January 8th, 2017, 6:57 pm

Depends on what aspect we're talking about.

First, for the mysteries, I think it's first worth noting that there was a significant increase in quality that took place over the first few years. This was particularly the case for the AOs (which were pretty bad at the beginning), but had a lengthy peak stretch from the early 100s into the late 200s. Even for the manga, it's my feeling that quite a few of the early cases actually have sort of flimsy mysteries/tricks and rely more on shock value than anything else.

For the plot, I don't have much of a clue. As hard as it is to judge quality of mysteries of time, it's even harder to judge plot when you come in midway through (and in my case I knew the outcome of the Vermouth arc before watching it). Given that, I would still echo the point that the need to maintain the status quo leads to more silliness as time goes on.
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"The energies of our system will decay; the glory of the sun will be dimmed, and the earth, tideless and inert, will no longer tolerate the race which has for a moment disturbed its solitude. Man will go down into the pit, and all his thoughts will perish. The uneasy consciousness, which in this obscure corner has for a brief space broken the contented silence of the universe, will be at rest. Matter will know itself no longer. 'Imperishable monuments' and 'immortal deeds,' death itself, and love stronger than death, will be as though they had never been."
Absenta
Posts: 36

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Absenta » January 8th, 2017, 7:17 pm

Related to the main plot, I think the decline started after the Kir arc , all through the Bourbon arc, now with the Rum arc the BO plot and stuff is getting better.
DCUniverseAficionado
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Life can be so many things... what it is for me and for you is up to us to decide.

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Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » January 11th, 2017, 9:41 am

dilbertschalter wrote:I would still echo the point that the need to maintain the status quo leads to more silliness as time goes on.


So it's always more silly, every day, or was there a specific point/range when the silliness was at its apogee?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Hattochi
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Posts: 6

Re: Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

Postby Hattochi » April 14th, 2017, 3:58 pm

Hello, not at all. Good criminal cases, of course my only critic is that anyone not growing all these years but i like episodes, no problems. :P

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