Doctor Who?
Re: Doctor Who?
The ending to me just made me go "WTF" and stuff.
Also was Amy really Amy from the start of the season?
Also was Amy really Amy from the start of the season?
- Stopwatch
Posts: 1360
Re: Doctor Who?
@Akonyl; Confidential actually explained it properly but I don't think you live in the UK so you wont have seen it. Basically the Ganger!Amy wasn't sentient like the others in the episode, the lightning hadn't affected it so it was simply flesh that Real!Amy controlled. In order to wake Real!Amy up, the Doctor had to sever the connection between the flesh and Real!Amy, this had the side-effect of melting the Ganger!Amy. I think I explained that correctly, if I didn't then maybe someone else should have a go...
On a slightly different topic, Amy first saw the Eyepatch Woman when she was in the orphanage during episode 2 of Series 6, we know that 3 months passed between ep 1 and ep 2 but as we're not really given a timescale for the rest of it (other than the girl regenerating 6 months after theyy left 1969) so it seems most likely she was taken during the three month gap. After all I'm fairly sure the stuff with the Pandorica proves it can't have been during Series Fnarg/Five...
On a slightly different topic, Amy first saw the Eyepatch Woman when she was in the orphanage during episode 2 of Series 6, we know that 3 months passed between ep 1 and ep 2 but as we're not really given a timescale for the rest of it (other than the girl regenerating 6 months after theyy left 1969) so it seems most likely she was taken during the three month gap. After all I'm fairly sure the stuff with the Pandorica proves it can't have been during Series Fnarg/Five...
Terry Pratchett wrote: The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.
Spoiler: Box full of stuff

Some year's SS by Abs. 


DCW SS from Anime Girl 4 Eva]

Thanks, cinna ^^
- Charlotte-Holmes
Posts: 89- Contact:
Re: Doctor Who?
Amy being pregnant and waking up in that place partly reminded me of the X-files where Scully gets kidnapped and has a baby. (PLus she's redhead too.)
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Re: Doctor Who?
I could have seen it, but I just don't bother watching Confidential because it's not important enough for that extra hour imoStopwatch wrote: @Akonyl; Confidential actually explained it properly but I don't think you live in the UK so you wont have seen it. Basically the Ganger!Amy wasn't sentient like the others in the episode, the lightning hadn't affected it so it was simply flesh that Real!Amy controlled. In order to wake Real!Amy up, the Doctor had to sever the connection between the flesh and Real!Amy, this had the side-effect of melting the Ganger!Amy. I think I explained that correctly, if I didn't then maybe someone else should have a go...

Also, if gangers can't be sentient unless they had been affected by the lightning, what's the deal with the double Jennifer gangers scene? She wasn't in a harness, so both of those gangers should have been sentient (unless there was another way to control the ganger), however only one of them was actually there during the storm. The Jennifer ganger also mentions that she remembers her previous deaths iirc, so I thought the implication wasn't that they weren't sentient until the storm, just that they couldn't do anything about it.
Also, if gangers aren't sentient unless the storm zaps them, then the ending of the episode still doesn't make sense, because where's the ethics problem then? The doctor sent the now-human gangers to the press meeting at that building to make sure they told people to stop the atrocities going on (like dumping the flesh while still alive and rotting), however if the only way they become sentient is through freak occurences like you're suggesting, there's no atrocity to be had (as shown by the doctor's willingness to kill a "non-sentient" ganger).
- Stopwatch
Posts: 1360
Re: Doctor Who?
Well, I'll have a go at explaining your second point then. You said that it was only freak accidents, right? This bit is partly speculation but my view on that is that it's the electricity that makes the gangers sentient. Lightning hits the Earth something like a million, probably more, times a year. It's often attracted to things like aerials (like the communications cockerel
). This would make the probability a lot higher than you're suggesting, even without factoring the fact that Solar Tsunamis seem relatively common during this time period. Also, they mention the Isle of Sheppey (apparently it's an actual place, by the way) which had an incident like this happen there. The Doctor repeatedly says about the flesh being very primative during this time, which suggests they've only been using it for a short amount of time, say 'bout 20 years. That means that, on average, there'll be at least one occurance of this every 20 or less years. Or at least, that's how I'm trying to justify it to myself y'know...
The rest of your argument however, the people on the thread below explain it a lot better than me:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1483411
EDIT: Wait, wait , wait! I forgot some other ways of getting electrocuted! There's the fact that people could do this on purpose, like, electrocute gangers so they can manipulate them to do what they want or so that they could so something like the Master attempted with his clones (well, sorta) overwhelming everyone else 'cause of the numbers. If this 'problem' became apparent is very, very easy for it to be taken advantage of. Just look at the Sontarans! Also, it doesn't have to be only weather related accidents, remember that work accidents could happen and the places the 'Morpeth Jetsan' company work in don't seem the safest. And a side note: Morpeth Jetsan really sounds like an anagram, you can get 'Master' with several letters I can't figure out or alternately 'Roman'. I don't know, it's probably nothing...

The rest of your argument however, the people on the thread below explain it a lot better than me:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1483411
EDIT: Wait, wait , wait! I forgot some other ways of getting electrocuted! There's the fact that people could do this on purpose, like, electrocute gangers so they can manipulate them to do what they want or so that they could so something like the Master attempted with his clones (well, sorta) overwhelming everyone else 'cause of the numbers. If this 'problem' became apparent is very, very easy for it to be taken advantage of. Just look at the Sontarans! Also, it doesn't have to be only weather related accidents, remember that work accidents could happen and the places the 'Morpeth Jetsan' company work in don't seem the safest. And a side note: Morpeth Jetsan really sounds like an anagram, you can get 'Master' with several letters I can't figure out or alternately 'Roman'. I don't know, it's probably nothing...
Last edited by Stopwatch on May 30th, 2011, 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Terry Pratchett wrote: The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.
Spoiler: Box full of stuff

Some year's SS by Abs. 


DCW SS from Anime Girl 4 Eva]

Thanks, cinna ^^
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Posts: 4200
Re: Doctor Who?
Hmm, the part in that link of the harness not being anywhere nearby and thus not affected by the storm is a fair point about killing the Amy Ganger, I suppose.
As to the other point of people using sentient gangers to further their own plans, that can be an issue yes, but it's not what the Doctor sent them to let the world know about, he sent them specifically to alert the world about the mistreatment of gangers when they become sentient. And really, having an accident happen every 20 or so years, especially for an emerging technology, is pretty good. There are far more dangerous technologies in the world that people accept, so unless they were trying to say that the ethics problem concerned the usage of non-sentient flesh as well, I don't see why it would be something they need to "tell the world".
As to the other point of people using sentient gangers to further their own plans, that can be an issue yes, but it's not what the Doctor sent them to let the world know about, he sent them specifically to alert the world about the mistreatment of gangers when they become sentient. And really, having an accident happen every 20 or so years, especially for an emerging technology, is pretty good. There are far more dangerous technologies in the world that people accept, so unless they were trying to say that the ethics problem concerned the usage of non-sentient flesh as well, I don't see why it would be something they need to "tell the world".
- Stopwatch
Posts: 1360
Re: Doctor Who?
Your argument that 'cause it doesn't happen that often means people don't need to know about it wouldn't really apply in situations like WW2 or Chenobyl (they're probably unfair comparisons but I really can't think of anything else at the moment). The fact that it could happen and probably will, even if it's not that often, means, at least in my mind, that people need to know about it to stop it from happening again. Or, in the case of the gangers, try and prevent the gangers from even becoming sentient, at the very least they should make employees aware of it so that next time it happens they wont panic and end up killing each other. Also, the gangers in this situation were considering 'taking revenge' on the human race, there's just way too many potential deaths if they don't tell anybody in my opinion.Akonyl wrote: Hmm, the part in that link of the harness not being anywhere nearby and thus not affected by the storm is a fair point about killing the Amy Ganger, I suppose.
As to the other point of people using sentient gangers to further their own plans, that can be an issue yes, but it's not what the Doctor sent them to let the world know about, he sent them specifically to alert the world about the mistreatment of gangers when they become sentient. And really, having an accident happen every 20 or so years, especially for an emerging technology, is pretty good. There are far more dangerous technologies in the world that people accept, so unless they were trying to say that the ethics problem concerned the usage of non-sentient flesh as well, I don't see why it would be something they need to "tell the world".
Last edited by Stopwatch on June 2nd, 2011, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Terry Pratchett wrote: The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.
Spoiler: Box full of stuff

Some year's SS by Abs. 


DCW SS from Anime Girl 4 Eva]

Thanks, cinna ^^
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Posts: 4200
Re: Doctor Who?
Those are pretty unfair comparisons, yeahStopwatch wrote:Your argument that 'cause it doesn't happen that often means people don't need to know about it wouldn't really apply in situations like WW2 or Chenobyl (they're probably unfair comparisons but I really can't think of anything else at the moment). The fact that it could happen and probably will, even if it's not that often, means, at least in my mind, that people need to know about it to stop it from happening again. Or, in the case of the gangers, try and prevent the gangers from even becoming sentient, at the very least they should make employees aware of it so that next time it happens they wont panic and end up killing each other. Also, the gangers in this situation were considering 'taking revenge' on the human race, there's just way too many potential deaths if they don't tell anybody in my opinion.Akonyl wrote: Hmm, the part in that link of the harness not being anywhere nearby and thus not affected by the storm is a fair point about killing the Amy Ganger, I suppose.
As to the other point of people using sentient gangers to further their own plans, that can be an issue yes, but it's not what the Doctor sent them to let the world know about, he sent them specifically to alert the world about the mistreatment of gangers when they become sentient. And really, having an accident happen every 20 or so years, especially for an emerging technology, is pretty good. There are far more dangerous technologies in the world that people accept, so unless they were trying to say that the ethics problem concerned the usage of non-sentient flesh as well, I don't see why it would be something they need to "tell the world".

WW2 was a completely different animal simply by virtue of the massive scale of it, combined with the entire purpose of the war being to kill people rather than their deaths being an incidental hazard of business. Chernobyl is a fairer comparison, however the difference between this episode and Chernobyl is that Chernobyl affected people completely innocent and unrelated to the disaster, not to mention that it was caused in part to how bad the reactor was anyway.
Here though, the sentient flesh (thus the flesh we care about) holds the exact consciousness of the people who control them, and these people enter the program knowledgeable of these dangers, that they may either end up in a dungeon slowly rotting away, or that they may just as well be killed by themselves. A much more apt comparison imo would be cars, which have been driven for quite a long time and yet even in 2010, nearly 40,000 people died from car crashes. Do we stop using cars though? No, because their usefulness along with the relatively low incidence makes it of little concern. The same can be said about coal mining or other dangerous jobs. And compared to that, an incident involving maybe 4-5 people every 20 years pales in comparison.
Sure, we take steps to minimize car crashes, just as they should probably get better storm shielding (which they should be trying for anyway) to prevent random sentience, but I don't think it's some huge earth-shattering ethics issue like the Doctor would have you believe.
- Stopwatch
Posts: 1360
Re: Doctor Who?
I'm gonna lose this argument aren't I? 
Hmm.. cars could work as a good comparison, much better than mine anyway.
Now, I can only state possibilities and probabilities backed with evidence from the Doctor Who canon and anything stated by Moffat and/or Confidential... Let's see what I can come up with then..
So possibility number 1: Panic or anger causes the gangers or humans to do something rash, something more than just killing their counterparts. From the situation we see in the previous two episodes this seems quite likely. At one point Ganger!Jenny suggested destroying the human race in revenge and the others were persuaded into going along with it due to a mixture of fear of what could happen to them and rage at what they viewed humans as being responsible for, ie the treatment of their 'race'. If we consider that the gangers have emotions the same as humans then their fear at what could happen to them acts as an easy motivator to 'defeat all humans before they're killed', or as Ganger!Jenny said 'Us against Them'. They'd feel cornered and with nothing else to do they'd fight back. It's basic human nature and as long as the humans don't believe they are real people this will be a very likely outcome if they don't destroy each other.
Number 2: Did the Doctor ever treat it as 'a big ethical problem'? The Doctor does whatever he thinks will improve a situation, even if it was just raising awareness in order to reduce risks. Also, Amy's ganger appears to be (depending on the interpretation) a much more advanced version of the flesh. The Doctor's line about the flesh from the 22nd century (correct me if I got that wrong..) being primitive implies that Amy's isn't. From the Doctor's point of view he may think that the advancements were made bcause of this incident, perhaps he felt the need to create a stable time loop. Besides, if certain vibrations or frequencies can essentially 'kill' the gangers and the Doctor didn't tell people about half the remaining crew being gangers the he'd feel respnsible if they died like that due to him withholding information, he doesn't want anymore guilt.
Number 3: Rory and Amy, if the Doctor didn't tell anyone about the gangers Rory and Amy would probably take into their own hands which could end up disasterously. They've both got the motivations (the Auton thing with Rory and the Ganger!Doctor with Amy) and it fits in with their characterisations so far.
Number 4: The sentient gangers have any mental instabilities brought to the forefront (best example has got to be Jenny, she went from quiet girl who was bullied and didn't protest or anything to absolutely insane and wanting to kill all humans). Whether this is a side effect of the process or simply the stress of what's happening we're never told, however it makes things very unpredictable. If the workers are aware of what's going on it would help them to keep calm and think more rationally.
Number 5: I've already mentioned this but I'll include it again I suppose... Sentient gangers could be used by races like the Sontarans and people like the Master, which could cause devastation across planets. Though this isn't as likely Morpeth Jetsan (and I still think that organisation if fishy..) should put in as many preventive measures as possible to eliminate this from occuring...
Finished making my points for now, if there's any rambling or any points don't make sense it's probably got something to do with the fact it's 00:11am over here and I get the feeling I'm not thinking clearly...
Any spelling errors are down to me typing this on my phone..
On a different note, I hope the Mid Series Finale's good

Hmm.. cars could work as a good comparison, much better than mine anyway.
Now, I can only state possibilities and probabilities backed with evidence from the Doctor Who canon and anything stated by Moffat and/or Confidential... Let's see what I can come up with then..

So possibility number 1: Panic or anger causes the gangers or humans to do something rash, something more than just killing their counterparts. From the situation we see in the previous two episodes this seems quite likely. At one point Ganger!Jenny suggested destroying the human race in revenge and the others were persuaded into going along with it due to a mixture of fear of what could happen to them and rage at what they viewed humans as being responsible for, ie the treatment of their 'race'. If we consider that the gangers have emotions the same as humans then their fear at what could happen to them acts as an easy motivator to 'defeat all humans before they're killed', or as Ganger!Jenny said 'Us against Them'. They'd feel cornered and with nothing else to do they'd fight back. It's basic human nature and as long as the humans don't believe they are real people this will be a very likely outcome if they don't destroy each other.
Number 2: Did the Doctor ever treat it as 'a big ethical problem'? The Doctor does whatever he thinks will improve a situation, even if it was just raising awareness in order to reduce risks. Also, Amy's ganger appears to be (depending on the interpretation) a much more advanced version of the flesh. The Doctor's line about the flesh from the 22nd century (correct me if I got that wrong..) being primitive implies that Amy's isn't. From the Doctor's point of view he may think that the advancements were made bcause of this incident, perhaps he felt the need to create a stable time loop. Besides, if certain vibrations or frequencies can essentially 'kill' the gangers and the Doctor didn't tell people about half the remaining crew being gangers the he'd feel respnsible if they died like that due to him withholding information, he doesn't want anymore guilt.
Number 3: Rory and Amy, if the Doctor didn't tell anyone about the gangers Rory and Amy would probably take into their own hands which could end up disasterously. They've both got the motivations (the Auton thing with Rory and the Ganger!Doctor with Amy) and it fits in with their characterisations so far.
Number 4: The sentient gangers have any mental instabilities brought to the forefront (best example has got to be Jenny, she went from quiet girl who was bullied and didn't protest or anything to absolutely insane and wanting to kill all humans). Whether this is a side effect of the process or simply the stress of what's happening we're never told, however it makes things very unpredictable. If the workers are aware of what's going on it would help them to keep calm and think more rationally.
Number 5: I've already mentioned this but I'll include it again I suppose... Sentient gangers could be used by races like the Sontarans and people like the Master, which could cause devastation across planets. Though this isn't as likely Morpeth Jetsan (and I still think that organisation if fishy..) should put in as many preventive measures as possible to eliminate this from occuring...
Finished making my points for now, if there's any rambling or any points don't make sense it's probably got something to do with the fact it's 00:11am over here and I get the feeling I'm not thinking clearly...

Any spelling errors are down to me typing this on my phone..
On a different note, I hope the Mid Series Finale's good

Terry Pratchett wrote: The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.
Spoiler: Box full of stuff

Some year's SS by Abs. 


DCW SS from Anime Girl 4 Eva]

Thanks, cinna ^^
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Posts: 4200
Re: Doctor Who?
probly not, because you can write more text than I can about it and I don't care about the topic that muchStopwatch wrote: I'm gonna lose this argument aren't I?![]()

And maybe not, but it seemed like he was suggesting so with the whole "you gotta let em know and gotta make em stop this" spiel at the end of the episode, though I could be wrong. Fair point on the stable time loop thing though. I don't think the vibrations thing is a big issue though, because for all we know it's a very complicated wave that would never "accidentally" be created.
I don't think Amy/Rory would go off and do it on their own though, because they really lack the resources to time travel without the doctor's permission, and if they went back to 2010 talking about gangers and stuff, they'd be deemed crazy

I don't think that the gangers have the instabilities brought forward (as that'd defeat the idea that they're human through-and-through), but I mean if you found out you weren't who you thought you were, you might snap too.
And yes the gangers could be used for bad purposes, however that can be said of almost any advanced technology, especially the types that show up in Doctor Who, so I don't think it's really an issue with the flesh.
but yeha, hopefully it is good. And once the episode airs I'll be talking about that one rather than the flesh anyway, so

- Stopwatch
Posts: 1360
Re: Doctor Who?
Hmm... 'kay then, I guess I'll stop my end of the discussion now then, writing walls of text is pretty hard on a phone (which is all I'll have access to for a while) and if the next episode is coming up then, yeah, as you say, it's better to discuss that and see how suprised about River's identity we'll be...

'Night then.


'Night then.

Terry Pratchett wrote: The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.
Spoiler: Box full of stuff

Some year's SS by Abs. 


DCW SS from Anime Girl 4 Eva]

Thanks, cinna ^^
Re: Doctor Who?
*tries to change topic* Anyone else excited for tomorrow and will Karen leave the show? and would Amy be gone or be replace?Also if the same thing going to happen to Arthur?
- Charlotte-Holmes
Posts: 89- Contact:
Re: Doctor Who?
I think tonight's episode was very overrated as the plot twists were a little obvious. No more Doctor Who until the autumn. 

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Re: Doctor Who?
yeah, some of them were a bit obvious, though
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- Charlotte-Holmes
Posts: 89- Contact:
Re: Doctor Who?
I still can't quite believe that the writers are trying to convince you that
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